CoS, what did JW do?

[Hellgi 0]

I think you're right and I am the same.

There's a difference though between healthy criticism and saying that imitating John Williams on his own request is a humiliation

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If Ross wrote most of the score I could explain why Williams did not conduct it himself.

This is something that I wondered about for years now, As far as I know Williams has never let someone else conduct an actual score he was involved in to a large degree. (He wrote 2 new themes for Supereman IV, but the underscore was all Sandy Courage).

[Hellgi 0]

William Ross indeed conducted the whole score. This include the main title and the end credits (contrary to what I have read here and there).

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This is incorrect.

Compare the Harry's Wondrous World tracks from both CD's with a wave editor.

Apart from a edit made at the 2 minute mark and the newly tagged on finale this is exactly the same piece of music, same orchestra, same recording, same take.

[Hellgi 0]

It does make sense that they would use a pre-record from the previous film (like they did for the Star Wars movies). That doesn't mean there wasn't a "main title" to record, for the exact reason you mentionned (edits).

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The main title for the film was a different recording to be sure.

As for re-using the Harry's Wondrous World...

It didn't make sense to me when they did it with the Prequels, and it doesn't make sense to me with COS.

Of course POA didn't fare to well in the End Title department either.

[Hellgi 0]

As far as I remember (but I might be wrong), they also did it on ESB and RotJ.

Saves time, saves money, sounds great. Everybody's happy!

(Except geek fans like you and I, of course).

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Every Williams fan KNOWS that that most definatly did not re-use the opening and closing music for the Star Wars films!

Everything is original with minor, but disctinct variations in performance that makes each piece worthwhile.

If Lucas spends millions on purdy CGI effects, he could have spend a few bucks on actually re-recording the opening music to his films.....

[Hellgi 0]

My bad. Then which recording did they use for episodes 1-2-3?

I personnaly hate the very idea of re-using materials from previous movies, sounds like intellectual laziness to me. Which is why I cursed (and probably still does in my sleep) George Lucas for the poor musical choices of Episodes 1-2-3.

If it's a time/schedule issue, I much prefer the idea of actually hiring someone to do the job of re-arranging the cues to sync them properly, rather than trusting a sound enginner to slice, cut, and paste everything in a weird order.

I mean, if they had James Newton Howard's music for King Kong composed, recorded and mixed in three weeks, I doubt that George Lucas didn't have that kind of possibility.

Except of course if they did it the day before sending the master reels, which would show how insecure Lucas is.

I can't even imagine Ken Wannberg agreeing to butcher Duel of the Fates. If he did, George Lucas was probably behind his back holding a whip or something. Because for all I know, a music editor fresh out of college would have done a better job.

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

For The Phantom Menace they recorded a new version (a rather unimpressive one IMO).

The other 2 prequels simply re-use this recording.

[Hellgi 0]

Ok, good to know.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Escape From Naboo was also re-used multiple times, if that's good too know too.

[King Mark 3,631]

1)If Williams Ross wrote the underscore for CoS,WHY did he choose to cut and paste 2 cues and themes from ATTACK OF THE CLONES into CoS(Chase over Coruscant and the mystery motif)?It seems only Williams could be responsible for this and only if he were in an extreme hurry,working on the 2 films in parallel.

2)Ocelot said Williams re-wrote most of the CoS score at the last minute.

3)A loooong analysis/report on JWfan making a detailed visual description of the final written score said all cues were by Williams

K.M.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Good question Mark.

[Hellgi 0]

Point is, there are many good temp tracks. That doesn't prevent directors to get a composer in the end.

I bet the temp track for Chamber of Secret was decent. (Probably completely tracked with material from Sorcecer's Stone.) That didn't prevent the Chris Colombus to request a composer, be it William Ross or not.

If it was a schedule issue, I have no idea why George Lucas didn't get someone like Ross. It would have been 1000 times better IMHO than re-using snippets from previous movies, especially like in Episode 2.

Hellgi

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Are you suggesting CoS might have been temped with AotC?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It would have cost more.

[Hellgi 0]

Mark, I simply do not know. In term of schedule though, I have no doubt that the work on Harry Potter happened far after Attack of the Clones. When Williams contacted Ross, he basically said that he wasn't planning on working on Catch Me If You Can that early, and that Spielberg forced him to do so by basically moving the recording date to an earlier date.

My bet is that this is why John Williams alredy had some music ready for Cos, and then was forced to move to Catch Me If You Can.

What I know for a fact is that the main writing process on Ross' side happened at the same time Williams was scoring Catch Me If You Can.

Now, I can't say for sure if William Ross had access to the Attack of the Clone score when he worked on CoS. I can't say either if John Williams worked on the specific cues you are mentionning before he had to hand the project to Bill.

Finally, let me just say that I don't know everything about the making of the CoS score. And I understand why you guys would be careful in dealing with yet another guy who claim to know the whole truth about CoS. I don't know *everything*, but I do know that William Ross scored most of it, that he did conduct everything, and that both of them can't easily say, by just listening to the soundtrack, who did what. I guess we'll have to go get the cue sheets for that.

But my point in telling you this, is that it doesn't really matter.

It would have cost more.

That's definitely a possible reason. Which shows how Lucas is a clever business man and a lazy artist (if he's an artist at all).

2)Ocelot said Williams re-wrote most of the CoS score at the last minute.

3)A loooong analysis/report on JWfan making a detailed visual description of the final written score said all cues were by Williams

K.M.

This is pure and simple BS.

Hellgi

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Ocelot is a reliable source. He was the first to report Patrick Doyle was going to score GoF if I'm not mistaken, long before all the Franz Ferdinand hubbub even.

[Hellgi 0]

Good for him

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ok kids, let's play nice here.

[Hellgi 0]

I'm just saying that being the first to say that Patrick Doyle is going to score one of Mike Newell's movies doesn't make someone an authority on who did what in regard to Chamber of Secret

Not saying that I'm an authority on it either, but - knowing that his information about JW re-writing most of CoS is completely false - it's hard for me to take this seriously.

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So Hellgi, how much of Lord Of The Rings did Howard Shore actually write?

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

There have been more reports by Ocelot that were pretty accurate.

Anyway, I'm starting to feel we're going in circles here. We've had a page of discussion, and we still don't know who exactly did what and how great Ross's involvement was. Did he only (re-)orchestrate? Or did he actually compose entirely original material?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The most important question is, did he write Fawkes The Phoenix and The Chamber Of Secrets!

[Lurker 5]

The most important question is, did he write Fawkes The Phoenix and The Chamber Of Secrets!

Williams wrote those.

Neil

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Or even Gilderoy Lockhart, The Flying Car, Dobby the House Elf, The Spiders or Dueling the Basilisk?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I never get to most of these tracks, by the time The Flying Car ends I'm bored and grab POA instead.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

The Flying Car bores you? I quite like it. Tracks 8-11 is some great stuff too. It's a shame The Dueling Club was mixed so low in the film (same for the rest of the score, btw).

[Hellgi 0]

It depends what you call "original material." In all fairness, you could dismiss the whole discussion and say that the music sounds so much like John Williams's Harry Potter music that it is *not* William Ross' music anymore.

Again, if you know William Ross' music, you know that he never writes like he did in Harry Potter.

It is a fact though that 80 minutes of the score were written by William Ross. Yes, he did base his themes on JW's themes, he did base his orchestration on JW's Harry Potter orchestration. That doesn't prevent the fact that he did sat at the keyboard, watched the movie, and wrote the notes you actually hear in the soundtrack. He did the "dramatic" scoring, which is basically what makes music... film music.

Hellgi

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Recycling The Chess Game, The Flying Keys, The Forbidden Forest, and several other cues from the first film is not what I'd call composing original material.

Writing stuff like Fawkes the Phoenix or The Chamber of Secrets is.

[Hellgi 0]

So Hellgi, how much of Lord Of The Rings did Howard Shore actually write?

None, it was scored by his nephew under a special, non-disclosure agreement.

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It bores me, for some reason pretty much everything in this lacks the magic the first one did have, and the third one also has, in a different way.

It's not impossible for me to believe another composer besides Williams had his hand in this, but even if Ross had nothing to do with this thing, I still consider it the most flawed Williams score of the new century. (and yes I have heard Fawkes The Phoenix, and no I don't particulary like it)

[gnicks 0]

For some reason I wrote off CoS as a rehash when it first came out. However, listening to it again it is actually quite a good album. Fawkes' theme is fantastic and the action music for the flying car and the basilisk were much better than I originally gave them credit for.

It's certainly not PoA or SS, but it's still very good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm not saying it's terrible music, it's just...average.

And I generally dislike cut and paste music.

[Hellgi 0]

Recycling The Chess Game, The Flying Keys, The Forbidden Forest, and several other cues from the first film is not what I'd call composing original material.

Writing stuff like Fawkes the Phoenix or The Chamber of Secrets is.

In that case, and if you don't consider William Ross arrangement to be original writing, then John Williams wrote 100% of a 20-minute score.

But notice that the credits never said that William Ross *wrote* the actual score. It says that he adapted it. The question is how much did he actually adapt, and how much was William's work. The answer is that he adapted 80 minute and that 20 minutes are William's actual amount of untouched music he wrote for the movie.

And when I say William Ross wrote 80 minutes of the score, I meant he wrote actual notes on paper. Were some of these notes heavily inspired by John Williams? Of course they were, and that was the whole point!

Without William Ross' "adaptation", you would have 6 or 7 new themes playing over and over with no kind of link.

So, you can also ask yourself, what is writing? Is writing necessarly writing new material? Can writing also be arranging or adapting or orchestrating? I personnaly believe it is.

If it's not, then I think John williams should throw away his oscar for Fiddler on a Roof.

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Hellgi's account corresponds more or less with the official version of what we were told about this score.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Recycling The Chess Game, The Flying Keys, The Forbidden Forest, and several other cues from the first film is not what I'd call composing original material.

Writing stuff like Fawkes the Phoenix or The Chamber of Secrets is.

In that case, and if you don't consider William Ross arrangement to be original writing, then John Williams wrote 100% of a 20-minute score.

There ya go. Although I too have read it's more like 40 minutes of score. Anyway.

But notice that the credits never said that William Ross *wrote* the actual score. It says that he adapted it. The question is how much did he actually adapt, and how much was William's work.

Well, yes, we've been going on about that for years.

The answer is that he adapted 80 minute and that 20 minutes are William's actual amount of untouched music he wrote for the movie.

So no composing, just adapting then.

So, you can also ask yourself, what is writing? Is writing necessarly writing new material?

In my mind, when talking about this particular case, yes.

If it [is], then I think John williams should throw away his oscar for Fiddler on a Roof.

That is incorrect reasoning, as the Academy Award Williams received in 1972 was for "Best Music: Scoring Adaptation and Original Song Score."

- Marc

[Hellgi 0]

If "adapting" is not writing, I wonder why they'd be giving an Oscar for it?

Go tell all the arrangers or orchestrators out there that what they're doing is not writing, we'll see what they tell you ...

The other question is, who deserves credit for CoS? I personnaly think John Williams does, but thanks to William Ross who was clever enough (in my opinion) to "humiliate himself" in not allowing his own style to come out of the score.

Hellgi

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I could not have put it better myself.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

But that's the whole point about this question we're asking ourselves. It's not about which one of them wrote the notes down on paper, but who actually came up with the new music. That's why I said "in this particular case."

You seem to be unable to come up with a clear definitive answer.

[Lurker 5]

And when I say William Ross wrote 80 minutes of the score, I meant he wrote actual notes on paper. Were some of these notes heavily inspired by John Williams? Of course they were, and that was the whole point!

Without William Ross' "adaptation", you would have 6 or 7 new themes playing over and over with no kind of link.  

So, you can also ask yourself, what is writing? Is writing necessarly writing new material? Can writing also be arranging or adapting or orchestrating? I personnaly believe it is.

I'm going to take some Shakespeare plays and re-type them just so I can get an adaptation credit and create internet controversy.

Neil

[Hellgi 0]

Hellgi's account corresponds more or less with the official version of what we were told about this score.

Sometimes the "official" version is closer to the truth than what we'd like to believe.

It's not about which one of them wrote the notes down on paper, but who actually came up with the new music. That's why I said "in this particular case."

New music is what linked all the themes together in the score. That includes new melody, chord progression, orchestration, etc. If you can't hear it, then - in my mind - that says Bill did a great job.

Hellgi

[Lurker 5]

So after all of this debate and discussion, what have we learned?

William Ross adapted John Williams music for Chamber of Secrets.

Thanks for enlightening us!

Neil

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We should have the dancing lock of death now!

[Hellgi 0]

So after all of this debate and discussion, what have we learned?

William Ross adapted John Williams music for Chamber of Secrets.

Thanks for enlightening us!

Neil

If you read correctly, you learned that Williams didn't write more than 20 minute of new material, and that the rest, minus the previous and new themes written by Williams, is William Ross writing Harry Potter-style music.

You also learned that the following statements:

I'm of the impression he wrote everything will William Ross finetuned it to the movie. Am I right?

Williams just conducted the score, which was composed entirely by William Ross

didnt williams compose all the music? -- Yes he did

its been determined that Williams wrote all the new music, and that Ross adapted a few pieces.

while its not entirely known what happened, its fairly obvious that Williams did not care for what Ross had done.

95% of what is on the soundtrack album is composed by Williams.

Ross original music was rejected, then Williams was going to make just the new themes. In the end, Williams had to write all new music, and i suppose Ross arranged existent cues to fit new scenes.

yes, JW wrote them all [the cues]

... are untrue.

Hellgi

[John Crichton 4]

Gee, I just came back in and read over 50 posts....and know the exact same thing I've known for years. I think circular arguments have been taken to a new level.

Personally I've always thought this was rather simple: William Ross picked out bits of Williams cues from SS and adapted them for use in CoS in whichever scenes Columbus wanted music that Williams didn't write anything new for. He then conducted the score. He didn't write a single note of original music himself. I've seen nothing in the last two pages to change my mind.

John- seconding Steef's call for the infamous Dancing Lock of Death

[Lurker 5]

From pages 3 and 4 of Bill Wrobel's analysis available for download here:

"I did indeed double-check the sketches in Chamber of Secrets to see if William Ross

(who was given some sort of credit billing) actually composed cues. At first I thought he

did because several full score cues were missing in that sequel. I assumed that perhaps

Ross adapted the music of Williams. These missing cues included the two scenes right

after "̀Dobby Warns Harry", the Weasley household scene ("Magical Household") right

after the "Escape From the Dursley's" cue, etc (I will elaborate on these specifically much later in this rundown). However, when I looked at the sketches, I discovered that

Williams did indeed compose all of the music. So what Ross did exactly besides some

conducting work, I am not sure. It is possible he adapted some of the cues to the final edit

of the film (??) but I do not know. I do not understand why about twenty of the cues are

not available in full score format for C.O.S., but hopefully I'll get a chance to look thru

the boxes far more closely (including going thru the Parts folders)."

Neil

[Hellgi 0]

Lol, that's funny.

So, William Ross was asked to write the score, which got rejected, and then John Williams jumped out of his crazy schedule on Catch Me if You Can to write the whole score.

Which he didn't conduct, obviously, because he hates so much conducting his own music.

In the end, William Ross kept his credit as arranger even though none of his music made it to the final mix, for purely legal matters.

Yeah, it makes sense. If you believe in conspiracy theories, that is (which I agree might be more entertaining to believe.)

Sadly, I have to report that the truth is much simpler.

[ymenard 54]

All this just proves that Columbus is such an over-rated director