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Why Brokenback Mountain?


Sonalitude

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Just from what I heard online and at the awards, the Brokeback theme sounded way too cheesy!!!!!!!! WAY!

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I am furious about Santaolalla's win, I think 2005 was Williams' best year for more than 10 years.

This makes me wonder, which case is "worse"?

Santaolalla's Oscar or Dudley's for "The Full Monty"?

My vote would have to go for Brokeback Mountain...

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In 2007,John Williams will score the tragedy "City of the Lost Souls",about two manic depressive black gay lawyers in wheelchairs dying of AIDS who planned to blow the whistle on a secret conspiracy by the government to invade Irak,but happened to be inside the World Trade Center on 9/11.It will consist of the same 3 note motif played on a recorder looped 25 times in the film.Expect him to win his sixth Oscar,unless his double nomination for Indy 4 splits the votes again,enabling Enriko Mirkolovsky's score To Looney Tunes,Back from the Dead to win.

K.M.

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Brokeback one because it stated a political message and it was about two GAY cowboys getting funky OF COURSE IT WON!!! LOL even though I have no damn clue what being gay has to do with score...

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Brokeback Mountain won because it recieved the most votes from the members of the academy.

It's really not hard to wrap one's mind around the concept.

Justin

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Brokeback won the most votes for two reasons:

1. The Academy felt like giving the movie a consolation prize - best score is the throwaway category in the modern Oscars.

2. Gustav has a foreign name. Ergo, he must write more sophisticated music - because, in the minds of Hollywood, anything from America has to be crap.

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It still has politics in it.Anyone not voting for Brokeback or admitting they didn't see it would be perceived as intolerant and homophobic,and that was the way the film got so much momentum untill everyone came to their senses and realised Crash was a better film.Unfortunatly the wave of reversal that prevailed in Best Film didn't work for Best Score in time.So maybe there was stuff behind the scenes going on to make sure that Brokeback won(allowing it to be nominated even if it was only 13 minutes long(or a bit more as pointed out),giving the shaft to Williams with a double nom and NOT giving Brokeback a Best Song nomination),because there's no way in hell this score could have won on it's musical merits alone,unless people really have no taste.

k.M.

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Wait, the Brokeback Mt score was only 13 min long???

No. This is one of the most persistent fallacies of the BBM score.

The album representation of that score is only 13 minutes long.

I gave the album two out of five here: http://www.musicweb-international.com/film...rokebackmt.html

As I understand, the Academy score promo runs more like 30 mins. In a film with barely any music at all (unlike the Aviator, where Shore's remaining 25 mins were swamped in other instrumental and pop contributions), this is quite sufficient a score to be eligible for the Oscar nom.

It's comparable to Gabriel Yared's nom for Cold Mountain a few years back... his score on the album was only 17 minutes or so, but his Oscar promo was about 45-50 mins.

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It doesn't make much of a difference.It's still crappy.

k.m.

Good on ya mate.

But if you want people to care about your opinion (and you hide behind a Darth Vader mask so I've got a feeling you do), check your facts. It makes a case more compelling.

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I don't care what people think of my opinion,and I won't try to make it more scientific than it is.That's the best way I can write it or can make a theory about what happened.I'm just mad my favourite composer with the best score this year lost to this garbage.

Some of us here were crushed watching the Oscars last night.More "general film score " fans may not feel this way.

K.M.

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Does the 13 minutes on the album give an accurate representation of what happens in the film?

Tim

The music remains solely in the idiom that you hear on the album, so understand I'm not arguing there are 12-13 unsung masterpiece themes that were left off the album. I'm just saying that it's wrong for everyone to go on saying that: (i) it was a 13 minute score; (ii) the very fact that it was nominated is a sign that the Academy nomination process was hijacked by gay lobbyists because any other score that short would have been disqualified.

Well, (i) is untrue. I can't speak for (ii), except to say that the score was obviously not found ineligible. And the SONGS were. If the song writer's branch disqualified the songs for making insufficient impact in the film, I can't see why the composers branch would have had a problem disqualifying the score of an Oscar favourite when barely a year before THREE of the Oscar favourites had their scores disqualified. (RAY, MILLION DOLLAR BABY and THE AVIATOR.)

So again, I'm not saying it's a better score than Munich or Memoirs or The Constant Gardener - all three I liked more. I'm just saying the hate is hate - irrational by definition, and seizing on any reason to belittle what does dramatically serve Ang Lee's film. Having said that, if it were up to some of the guys here, Anton Karas' score for The Third Man would have never seen the light of day.

Some of us here were crushed watching the Oscars last night.More "general film score " fans may not feel this way.

K.M.

Crushed?

I must be a more general film score fan then? :thumbup: (Something I don't have a problem with - Williams is the best, but there are others.)

Get over it Mark... Admittedly, this is not an unlikely place to find such devoted hero worship, but Williams is my favourite composer too. I chuckled when I heard about the Oscar wins. Learn to value your own opinion more if that's all you care about - the Oscars shouldn't matter.

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Well,then the other theory is that in 2006,a simple guitar theme is deemed better music by the majority of people than more complex orchestral works.

But I still think a bad combination of converging elements made Geisha lose,since it won every other awards before the Oscars.

k.M.

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Does the music develop in any sort of way? Is it looped throughout the movie?

If there's a rule setting a percentage of recycling for sequel scores to be eligible, there ought to be a rule stating that a score must meet other specific criteria such as development.

If I were a composer in such a case, I would find it rather insulting to be awarded a prize just because the movie had to be given something to be politically correct.

I wonder if getting a Razzie might not be even better-- being judge the poorest score, but at least being judged on your work than serving as some sort of compensation. for silly reasons.

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On the looping question, there are two themes and some minor motifs (more progressions I suppose) that are derived from those themes. It is however a very minimal score - different style of scoring altogether from Williams, Marianelli and Iglesias (the latter having a different style yet again). The score was completed mostly prior to shooting, which was an interesting facet of its production that derived from the small ensemble character, and probably elevated it in the eyes of many composers who would kill for a chance like that. (E.g. David Shire, The Conversation; Anton Karas, The Third Man.)

Anyone who wants the whole score btw:

click

$255?!?!? 8O

ROTFLMAO

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Did you say the musical sketches showed on the TV at the oscars?

Santaolalla were by far the most simple and Williams the most complex, specially Geisha, that had at least five times more of pentagrams in it...

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Did you say the musical sketches showed on the TV at the oscars?

Santaolalla were by far the most simple and Williams the most complex, specially Geisha, that had at least five times more of pentagrams in it...

I don't know - I didn't watch the Oscars. Of course Santaolalla's music is going to n degrees less complex than Williams though. The former's background is a solo album career as a guitarist. It's more in the spirit of a Neil Young style score than Williams, who tends to operate symphonically. More forces bring greater capacity for complexity.

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The score was completed mostly prior to shooting, which was an interesting facet of its production that derived from the small ensemble character, and probably elevated it in the eyes of many composers who would kill for a chance like that. (E.g. David Shire, The Conversation; Anton Karas, The Third Man.)

Which means, for me, that it's not even a film score. Completing most of a score before the director even puts his stamp on the picture goes against everything a film score is supposed to represent.

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On the looping question, there are two themes and some minor motifs (more progressions I suppose) that are derived from those themes. It is however a very minimal score - different style of scoring altogether from Williams, Marianelli and Iglesias (the latter having a different style yet again). The score was completed mostly prior to shooting, which was an interesting facet of its production that derived from the small ensemble character, and probably elevated it in the eyes of many composers who would kill for a chance like that. (E.g. David Shire, The Conversation; Anton Karas, The Third Man.)

Anyone who wants the whole score btw:

click

$255?!?!?  8O  

ROTFLMAO

Wow!!, that is shocking and hysterical LOL

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The score was completed mostly prior to shooting, which was an interesting facet of its production that derived from the small ensemble character, and probably elevated it in the eyes of many composers who would kill for a chance like that. (E.g. David Shire, The Conversation; Anton Karas, The Third Man.)

Which means, for me, that it's not even a film score. Completing most of a score before the director even puts his stamp on the picture goes against everything a film score is supposed to represent.

Previous film scores completed mostly prior to shooting - so clear was the directorial intent:

The Conversation (Dir: Coppolla)

Once Upon a Time in the West (Dir: Leone) and all subsequent Leone scores

Select sequences The Good, The Bad and the Ugly (Dir: Leone)

2046 (Dir: Wong Kar Wai) - while not composed in pre-production, these cues were not written for specific scenes, but written for the script, the director approved the ones which suited his approach. Most of The Thin Red Line was written in this style as well.

In the case of the Yared-Minghella collaboration, many of the themes and suites from Cold Mountain and Talented Mr Ripley were written in pre-production.

So too with Michael Nyman and The Piano.

Heck... John Williams' JFK was, unless I'm mistaken, written from the Sklar/Stone script?

And do these films' scores go against everything a film score is meant to represent? These being a fairly small sampling of what is seen as a fairly foresightful practice - the score's composition moving alongside the composition of the picture.

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Really? He hasn't seen COS? (I haven't either.)

But aren't there some cues he wrote for the film which directly reference events on screen via 'hits'??! (Not that it wouldn't be impossible to do that without a good music editor...)

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Previous film scores completed mostly prior to shooting - so clear was the directorial intent:

The Conversation (Dir: Coppolla)

Once Upon a Time in the West (Dir: Leone) and all subsequent Leone scores

Select sequences The Good, The Bad and the Ugly (Dir: Leone)

2046 (Dir: Wong Kar Wai) - while not composed in pre-production, these cues were not written for specific scenes, but written for the script, the director approved the ones which suited his approach. Most of The Thin Red Line was written in this style as well.

In the case of the Yared-Minghella collaboration, many of the themes and suites from Cold Mountain and Talented Mr Ripley were written in pre-production.

So too with Michael Nyman and The Piano.

Heck... John Williams' JFK was, unless I'm mistaken, written from the Sklar/Stone script?

And do these films' scores go against everything a film score is meant to represent? These being a fairly small sampling of what is seen as a fairly foresightful practice - the score's composition moving alongside the composition of the picture.

Yes, these go against it, for me anyway. While the music was effective in most of your examples, it is impossible for the music to truly follow the development of the film if the score is not conceived after the film is developed and edited. Effective post production editing of the film TO the music can mimimize this issue of course, especially if the pre-composed music generally fits the mood of the picture. But for me, a film score must come after the editing to as to reflect the picture, not lead it. Ehh, just my thoughts on the matter. ROTFLMAO

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Yes, these go against it, for me anyway.  While the music was effective in most of your examples, it is impossible for the music to truly follow the development of the film if the score is not conceived after the film is developed and edited.  Effective post production editing of the film TO the music can mimimize this issue of course, especially if the pre-composed music generally fits the mood of the picture.  But for me, a film score music come after the editing to as to reflect the picture, not lead it.  Ehh, just my thoughts on the matter. ROTFLMAO

Cool, but I tend to think that does restrict the music to following the picture a bit too much. You get a very dramatic kind of mickey-mousing sometimes - though of course there are hundred of exceptions... I like those cases where there is a very real counterpoint between image and picture (often only possible where the composer writes without seeing the picture), or the music clearly leads the action. (E.g. Williams' 'Meeting with Mao', which I suspect was written as a conceptual piece based on the ideas and footage of that scene, and the scene edited to it.)

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Cool, but I tend to think that does restrict the music to following the picture a bit too much. You get a very dramatic kind of mickey-mousing sometimes - though of course there are hundred of exceptions... I like those cases where there is a very real counterpoint between image and picture (often only possible where the composer writes without seeing the picture), or the music clearly leads the action. (E.g. Williams' 'Meeting with Mao', which I suspect was written as a conceptual piece based on the ideas and footage of that scene, and the scene edited to it.)

Yeah, I suppose it can restrict the music in a very specific way, but after the picture is edited the composer at least has the option to mickey mouse it, play a couterpoint to the picture or any other technique at their disposal. When a composer understands the art of scoring I would much rather have them composing in post-production than pre-production. But when your name is Gustavo Santoalla, it doesn't matter when composition takes place because the score will always be atrocious. The beginning of The Sum of All Fears plays a beautiful counterpoint to the picture with the aria over the potential of a military born nuclear holocaust. Goldsmith was a master at playing the points of the picture that weren't obvious. I also liked that way Williams played over A.I. There was a very enjoyable attention to the greater arc of the film.

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But when your name is Gustavo Santoalla, it doesn't matter when composition takes place because the score will always be atrocious.  

Well that's a bit unkind. His style suits 21 Grams, Amores Perros and Motorcycle Diaries, and Michael Mann made excellent use of his music in The Insider. I don't like his stuff much as abstract music to listen to (unless it's an album like Ronrocco), but he works well in certain films.

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But when your name is Gustavo Santoalla, it doesn't matter when composition takes place because the score will always be atrocious.  

Well that's a bit unkind.

Perhaps it is unkind, but it just gets under my skin when mediocraty is rewarded. I've seen most of the movies that he has composed music for, and I just think he has no idea what he's doing when composing film music. He's a kind of John Barry without the composition chops or charm, he just plays over scenes often oblivious to what's going on in the movie.

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Hitch, who thought Dolly Parton should have won for Best Song instead of the awful Pimp song trivel.

Dolly Parton is boobs on a stick. Despite her laughable, cartoonish appearance, her song deserved to win by a long shot over what you correctly call the "pimp drivel". That was perhaps the worst song I have ever heard and that is not an exaggeration.

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Dolly Parton is boobs on a stick. Despite her laughable, cartoonish appearance, her song deserved to win by a long shot over what you correctly call the "pimp drivel". That was perhaps the worst song I have ever heard and that is not an exaggeration.

You should check out 'Hulkster's In The House', sung by Hulk Hogan himself. Wow, god awful, and god awesome.

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I think the Academy makes it its business NOT to award JW anymore. Everyone knows JW is the best, everyone knows he's the most obvious winner every damn year (except maybe for a few exceptions), so they take a perverse pleasure in NOT giving him an Oscar. By nominating him but not awarding him, they want to highlight the winner all the more, no matter what crappy score he wrote. Then the unknown winner can boast: hey I was up against John Williams and won -- so my score has to have SOME merit, no matter how crappy it sounds!!!

I think the same applied for Spielberg before he finally got recognized for Schindler's List. He was too damn good, too damn successful. So they took a perverse pleasure in nominating him/his movies but snubbing him eventually. I think the Academy needs to grow up a little and recognize true talent/greatness more consistently, instead of playing little political games. If such a load of crap as Brokeback Mountain (the score) can beat out Memoirs of a Geisha (or Finding Neverland can beat out PoA), then it's hard to take the Academy seriously. It just offends the public.

What I mean to say it, I've watched JW lose many times over the past decade or so, but for me, this year was the most painful loss, by far. I feel sorry for John, because he really appeared to want to win this year, what with all the campaign and everything. Not to mention the little fact that MoG WAS indeed the best score of the year. I just hope JW didn't take the loss too hard -- but I guess by now he's accustomed to NOT being given true credit by the Academy.

ROTFLMAO

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I agree that THIS loss is the worst ever.It's even worse than Williams losing to Chariots of Fire .At least that theme is still well known today,even if I don't like it.Last year ,the score to Finding Neverland wasn't so crappy to say Williams loss was inexplicable,and it was mixed in the film much louder then PoA so it was more noticeable.And when Williams lost to stuff like Shakespeare in Love,well that theme is still catchy and well orchestrated.

Well Spielberg must have been equally dissapointed at the Oscars this year.Seems like the Academy is back to snubbing him again too.

A parallel could be drawn between the scores to BrokebackMountain and last year's Million Dollar Baby.Williams would have lost to Clint Eastwood's Million Dollar Baby score last year if it had been elligible,because it is EXACTLY the same kind of score than Brokeback Mountain for the same"category"of film the Academy showers with Oscars.I was so afraid it would be nominated(Williams lost anyways but still...).But even Million dollar Baby was better than Brokenback.

K.M.

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Okay...

Having just seen BROKEBACK MOUNTAIN, which was actually better than I would have expected...but still not 'Best Picture' when compared against CRASH, I can now talk about the score, informed.

Sure...I haven't seen GEISHA, or MUNICH...but I can comment on BROKEBACK. My reaction is...'Huh, nice theme. It works well.'

As far as the word 'score' goes, I need to do a proverbial double take since this is one of the most score-less films I have seen in my life. So the academy gave an award for Score to a film without one. I really don't get it. If I ever make a film, I'll make sure there is zero music, including source music...that way I'll get an Oscar for sure!

This is a travesty...

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On the looping question, there are two themes and some minor motifs (more progressions I suppose) that are derived from those themes. It is however a very minimal score - different style of scoring altogether from Williams, Marianelli and Iglesias (the latter having a different style yet again). The score was completed mostly prior to shooting, which was an interesting facet of its production that derived from the small ensemble character, and probably elevated it in the eyes of many composers who would kill for a chance like that. (E.g. David Shire, The Conversation; Anton Karas, The Third Man.)

Anyone who wants the whole score btw:

click

$255?!?!?  8O  

ROTFLMAO

Wow!!, that is shocking and hysterical LOL

Actually shocking is a quotation from the CD description:

"This special CD was sent only to select members of the Hollywood community for awards consideration. It's in MINT condition and has never been used."

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Actually shocking is a quotation from the CD description:

"This special CD was sent only to select members of the Hollywood community for awards consideration. It's in MINT condition and has never been used."

Now there you have it. Proof of the lobby. It was going to win regarless of the voting....

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Both or each?

You'll notice the seller dare not even specify the CD's length-- just "22 tracks"; not that they might be 10 seconds long each only.

It's really sick and disgusting that people make huge bucks selling something they have received for free.

And after all I've read, I hardly see why anyone would want to pay anything to get that CD.

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Non of the three songs nominated should have won.

All three were crap, I don't like rap music to start with.

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All three were crap, I don't like rap music to start with.

Isn't this an oxymoron?

An antinomy?

Something like anti-matter & matter?

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