Dr. Jones 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi folks... after a long time I'm posting again Yesterday I was listening to StreamingSoundtracks.com.. and suddenly I was very joyful when i heard Williams playing.. well I thought so...It was George Delures (or how you write that Name) "AGNES OF GOD" instead... but fact isThe chords and the harpnotes at the beginning are exactly.. EXACTLY the same as the beginning of "The face of PAN!!!!" i was really shocked.. and then the flut starts to play.. and all in the same key!!Did anyone know that? Is that temp-trackitis??If you want to hjear an example..Just tell me... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antineutrino 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Did you really think that JW doesn't have to deal with temp-tracks? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr. Jones 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Author Share Posted March 21, 2006 Did you really think that JW doesn't have to deal with temp-tracks?...well yes.. more than that.. I know that fact! but...they should be an inspiration.. and not just be copied..!I just find it funny... 8O Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Greetings!I'm sure this could be the result of temp-tracking, and I know John Williams thinks highly of his older colleague, but I rather think this is a result of tapping into similar muso-mythological terrain, or sonic archetypes...The arpeggiated gentle I-VI progression is certainly iconic, and the silvan flute solo is equally established icon of Pan, albeit the Pan of mythology...Best,Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 How does that explain My Friend, The Brachiasaurus? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcus 390 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Hi Stefancos! Ah, yes, I love the flute solo in that piece...And also the beautiful solo in the concert version of Leia's theme.The flute is one of Williams' favorite instruments, and it is a likely candidate for playful solos, as in "My Friend, The Brachiosaurus", or more elegiac pieces, whenever Williams assigns an instrument a solo...But I think that in "The Face of Pan", it is possible, especially considering Williams' love for mythology, that chose the flute for,well, the sake of being "archaically" truthful, too capture something of the mystery and magic of the mythological Pan, which we glimpse behind J.M. Barrie's eternally youthful creation, and, I think, also in "Hook", as we see the reflection of the young Peter Pan in the water...But again, it could easily be a purely musical choice, and certainly a very happy one.All best,Marcus Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ollie 1,059 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh well Williams gets copied as well and Goldsmith mentioned that every composer has borrowed or copied in their career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Oh well Williams gets copied as well and Goldsmith mentioned that every composer has borrowed or copied in their career.But when Horner does it it is a bloody crime!!!-Mikko who could not care less if Delerue's score has similarities since it changes nothing- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 For me it(Agnes) sounds more like Mozart's flute/harp concerto... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 Icanus, Horner copies large sections note for note along with the orchestration of classical pieces that aren't in the mainstream so that less people would note his pillaging. That's why he lifts so much Shostakovich. Although I'd like to believe many people know his symphonies, they aren't as identifiable to most as say a Beethoven symphony or Mozart piece. Horner's way of doing things always seems sneaky and underhanded. I was listening to John Adams' Grand Pianola Music and lo and behold, I thought I was listening to Horner's Sneaker's. Same lydian mode chords, wordless female utterances, everything. Sheesh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tony69 0 Posted March 21, 2006 Share Posted March 21, 2006 true. i'm sure williams actually copied somewhat for my friend the brachiosaurus. the temp track for that scene WAS from falstaff so i dont doubt that he probably used it as a template. likewise maybe face of pan was a temp track for the george delerue?and as well, using other people's themes/progressions isnt bad. bach's opening for WTC Bk1 prelude 1, the chords have been used by Soooo many people. and as well, lots of classical composers reused material from older composers. bruckner used wagner themes. rachminonf used paganini. or more recently, larsen from handel. its not a bad thing. its a sign of acknowledgement as well as respect. but of course the ultimate question is how much gets copied. if it is direct lift then obviously it's not acceptable. but if there's edits, different ways of using the theme, then i think its valid. so i dont know much about horner but i'm sure his copying was completely intentional. same with williams's slight variation for my friend. sign of respect. as goldsmith said, everyone copies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted March 22, 2006 Share Posted March 22, 2006 Icanus, Horner copies large sections note for note along with the orchestration of classical pieces that aren't in the mainstream so that less people would note his pillaging. That's why he lifts so much Shostakovich. Although I'd like to believe many people know his symphonies, they aren't as identifiable to most as say a Beethoven symphony or Mozart piece. Horner's way of doing things always seems sneaky and underhanded. I was listening to John Adams' Grand Pianola Music and lo and behold, I thought I was listening to Horner's Sneaker's. Same lydian mode chords, wordless female utterances, everything. Sheesh.I was making a joke I thought I should have put smiley in my previous post. I know Horner is shameless in copying some compositions (from Prokofiev for example). I was not outraged on Horner's behalf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro 147 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I'm uninformed; what song does "My Friend the Brachiosaurus" correspond with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 The Death of Falstaff from Patrick Doyle's Henry V. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joni Wiljami 1,206 Posted March 28, 2006 Share Posted March 28, 2006 I listened 30 sec. sound clip of Henry V(falstaff) but I didn't find the similarity.It must come later and be quite obvious because I have heard this earlier.Have to check this later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I think there is only a superficial similarity in My Friend Brachiosaurus to Doyle's Death of Falstaff from Henry V. But I had never thought of this untill Stefan pointed it out, it is so small.I really wish I could hear Agnes of God so I could hear how close The Face of Pan is to the composition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maestro 147 Posted March 29, 2006 Share Posted March 29, 2006 I was surprised just how close Agnes of God was to The Face of Pan. The Doyle similarity was evident, but not nearly as striking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Incanus 5,714 Posted April 1, 2006 Share Posted April 1, 2006 Having now heard the Agnes of God I must say that the similarity ends in the harp intro. The melody itself is not similar except in tone (religious). The flute begins in the same key but that is that. BTW Agnes of God is a beautiful piece of music and I think Spielberg might have used it as temp track for the Face of Pan scene and Williams has taken his cue from that but there is no overt similarity there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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