Inception - Spoilers Allowed Discussion Thread

[Jay 37,359]

It was getting difficult to discuss Inception in the "last film you watched" thread, with all the spoiler tags and what-not. So how about a separate thread just to discuss it, for those of us that have seen it.

IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN INCEPTION, TURN AWAY NOW!!! THIS THREAD ISN'T FOR YOU!!!

Alright, I thought I'd start by posting this graphic I've seen on a bunch of different websites:

I like that graph a lot, but one thing: Wasn't the snow fortress supposed to be Fischer's dream? They mentioned in the movie they were having him help break into his own subconscious without knowing it.

The only thing I'm still somewhat confused about after seeing the movie is the whole limbo thing. Was it really some limbo that any human could get to if enough fucked up shit happened to them in their dreams within dreams, or was it really just Cobb's dream created inside the snow fortress that others joined him in because they were all hooked into the machine?

Did anyone notice Cobb's wedding ring? Apparently he is never seen wearing it in the real world, but always is inside the dream worlds. And he's not wearing it at the end in the final scenes

[Red 75]

I like that graph a lot, but one thing: Wasn't the snow fortress supposed to be Fischer's dream? They mentioned in the movie they were having him help break into his own subconscious without knowing it.

No, the third level was Eames' dream (hence why he stays behind to rig the kick) with Fisher being the subject being brought in to "fill it with their subconscious", i.e. the giant safe that Fisher goes in to confront the projection of his father.

The only thing I'm still somewhat confused about after seeing the movie is the whole limbo thing. Was it really some limbo that any human could get to if enough fucked up shit happened to them in their dreams within dreams, or was it really just Cobb's dream created inside the snow fortress that others joined him in because they were all hooked into the machine?

Limbo was a shared state, which is why first Cobb and Mal were there together and later Cobb, Ariadne, Fisher, and Saito. With the special sedative they were using if you die in any of the dream levels you go to limbo, and if you're sharing a dream with someone who has already been to limbo you see the stuff they made there, which is why Ariadne and Fisher went to the destroyed city that Cobb and Mal made. By the time Cobb finds Saito, which appears to have been a while, the city was gone and Saito had filled limbo with his own constructions, namely the Japanese pagoda and subconscious bodyguards.

[Jay 37,359]

Yea, I did some further reading and get it all now. Each new level of dream needs somebody to stay behind who doesnt go into that dream to dream it.

So Yusuf dreams the original dream where they kidnap Fischer, and then can't enter the next dream world down. He stays behind to drive the van.

Then inside the van, Arthur dreams up the Hotel dream, so he can't enter the next dream world down. He stays behind in the hotel to wake everyone up when its time.

Inside the hotel, Eames dreams up the Snow Fortress dream, so he can't enter the next dream world down. He stays behind to give those who do (Cobb, Adriadne, Saito, Fischer) enough time do what they need to do, and to initiate the Kick when its time.

So if limbo is a shared state... how is that different from any other dream? They are all shared with the right equipment. Do you mean that if some dude in Australia was hooked up to a dream machine and under the same sedation, he'd enter the same limbo and Cobb, Saito and all them?

I found two cool links with some fun explanations:

http://www.cinemable...ream-19615.html

http://www.cinematic...ive-plot-holes/

[indy4 155]

So if limbo is a shared state... how is that different from any other dream?

You don't escape from limbo after a certain time, where as in a dream they ensure you wake up in a certain time (ie 10 hours on the plane). This makes it much easier to loose your grasp on what is real and what is not.

What I don't understand is why Saito didn't kill himself immediately upon entering limbo. Why would he wait so long that he doesn't understand it's not real.

They are all shared with the right equipment. Do you mean that if some dude in Australia was hooked up to a dream machine and under the same sedation, he'd enter the same limbo and Cobb, Saito and all them?

I think he has to be a part of the specific dream that Cobb and friends are in.

[Jay 37,359]

So anyone under heavy sedation, sharing the same dream state, would go to the same limbo if they die enough levels down in a dream.... gotcha.

Why is Cobb aware that its limbo and not reality the whole time, but Saito isn't? Just because of time spent there?

[indy4 155]

So anyone under heavy sedation, sharing the same dream state, would go to the same limbo if they die enough levels down in a dream.... gotcha.

Based on what Red Rabbit said, I think so.

Why is Cobb aware that its limbo and not reality the whole time, but Saito isn't? Just because of time spent there?

Yeah, if you stay in limbo for too long then you loose touch of reality (which is what drove Cobb to spin the top in his wife's safe). Which leads to the question I mentioned in my last post: why didn't Saito kill himself immediately upon entering limbo?

Also, was the connection between the wife and that safe with the top in it ever explicitly explained? I understand the symbolic meaning, but it seems like there would be some sort of factual, scientific connection made between Mal and the safe and why the connection did not break after Mal woke up.

[Jay 37,359]

Yea I'm a bit confused about the limbo. I guess the first time Cobb and Mal entered it, it was by accident; They were deep in a dream state and didn't seem to be waking up, so they tried killing themselves to wake up, but it didn't work, and they ended up in limbo instead. But then how were they able to eventually get out? Did the top have something to do with it? Did Cobb finding it in the safe trigger some memory about reality or something?

And then the limbo at the end of the movie, was Cobb fine because he recognized it right away? But Saito had no idea what was going on, so he was trapped there for so long?

I think aging the characters in those scenes was an unnecessary element of the storytelling. If they all just stayed young I think they could have gotten the same points across.

[indy4 155]

Yea I'm a bit confused about the limbo. I guess the first time Cobb and Mal entered it, it was by accident; They were deep in a dream state and didn't seem to be waking up, so they tried killing themselves to wake up, but it didn't work, and they ended up in limbo instead. But then how were they able to eventually get out? Did the top have something to do with it? Did Cobb finding it in the safe trigger some memory about reality or something?

They got out by killing themselves with the train. It's very possible to escape limbo, the problem is people (like Mal and Seito) loose touch with what is real and what isn't, and so they don't want to escape.

And then the limbo at the end of the movie, was Cobb fine because he recognized it right away? But Saito had no idea what was going on, so he was trapped there for so long?

Yeah, maybe. I'm not so certain about that myself.

[Red 75]

I'm pretty sure Saito didn't catch on immediately that limbo (or the level four dream state) was false because he got there by dying in the upper dream level. The reason why he was old is because he lost track of reality, so he thought he was actually growing old. Cobb and Ariadne got to limbo with the dream sharing machine so they knew it was fake, plus Cobb had been there before. However once Cobb gets around to finding Saito an unknown time has passed and even he had lost track of where he was and what he was trying to do. It was only after Saito spoke about the top and repeated some key phrases ("Leap of faith", "Dying an old man") that Cobb remembered and got Saito and himself out.

Cobb and Mal first got to limbo by going too far down in their dreams, so I think it's arguable that limbo was actually the fourth level dream state. Cobb and Ariadne went there by going under in level three, which I'm guessing is how Cobb & Mal were initially trapped there.

[King Mark 3,631]

One thing that's not clear to me. Why is everyone in the "levels" the architect (Ellen Page) designed. I also didn't get the projections are what characters bringing them into the dream

[Jay 37,359]

I'm pretty sure Saito didn't catch on immediately that limbo (or the level four dream state) was false because he got there by dying in the upper dream level. The reason why he was old is because he lost track of reality, so he thought he was actually growing old. Cobb and Ariadne got to limbo with the dream sharing machine so they knew it was fake, plus Cobb had been there before. However once Cobb gets around to finding Saito an unknown time has passed and even he had lost track of where he was and what he was trying to do. It was only after Saito spoke about the top and repeated some key phrases ("Leap of faith", "Dying an old man") that Cobb remembered and got Saito and himself out.

Except that Cobb and Mal DID age the first time they were there - the initial flashbacks showed them as young, but the later ones at the end of the movie showed them as aged

Cobb and Mal first got to limbo by going too far down in their dreams, so I think it's arguable that limbo was actually the fourth level dream state. Cobb and Ariadne went there by going under in level three, which I'm guessing is how Cobb & Mal were initially trapped there.

Yea I think that's all it is too, I mean didn't they use a dream machine in the snow level to have others join Saito in "limbo"?

[Red 75]

One thing that's not clear to me. Why is everyone in the "levels" the architect (Ellen Page) designed. I also didn't get the projections are what characters bringing them into the dream

The architect designs the dreams so that they're navigable for the extractors and so that they can fool the subject that they're not dreaming. The projections were subconscious entities that attacked anyone they knew were sharing a dream with the person, like white blood cells attacking a foreign substance in the body.

Except that Cobb and Mal DID age the first time they were there - the initial flashbacks showed them as young, but the later ones at the end of the movie showed them as aged

Yes, because they had for that time accepted that limbo was their reality, until Cobb eventually couldn't take it anymore and performed inception on Mal to get her to leave with him. Granted he just could have killer her, but he was so in love that he couldn't even shoot a malevolent projection of her later on, let alone the "real" version of her.

[Jay 37,359]

One thing that's not clear to me. Why is everyone in the "levels" the architect (Ellen Page) designed.

That's how this dream world works. A perfect falls asleep, and they dream. But if you attach them to the machine, and then an architect attaches themselves, they can project a world they created into the dreamer's mind. Problems arise when the dreamer becomes aware that his dream is being manipulated by an outside person, thats when his subconscious projections start attacking the people he knows shouldn't be there.

I also didn't get the projections are what characters bringing them into the dream.

What do you mean?

[King Mark 3,631]

ok ,simpler question. In that early scene where Ellen Page folds the city ,whose dream is it and whose projection are attacking Ellen Page because she's folding the streets and messing with the laws of physics?

[Red 75]

ok ,simpler question. In that early scene where Ellen Page folds the city ,whose dream is it and whose projection are attacking Ellen Page because she's folding the streets and messing with the laws of physics?

The dream and the projections were Cobb's (DiCaprio). That's why his dead wife showed up and stabbed Ariadne (Page).

[rpvee 805]

ok ,simpler question. In that early scene where Ellen Page folds the city ,whose dream is it and whose projection are attacking Ellen Page because she's folding the streets and messing with the laws of physics?

I think it's Cobb's dream, since it's his projections attacking her.

Just saw the movie today, I loved it!

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Good movie, the ending pissed me off.

[Jay 37,359]

ok ,simpler question. In that early scene where Ellen Page folds the city ,whose dream is it and whose projection are attacking Ellen Page because she's folding the streets and messing with the laws of physics?

That was Cobb's dream. He was showing her how she could be an architect in someone else's dream. So he made her realize it was a dream, then told her to start reshaping things. As soon as she did they were screwed, because his subconscious now was completely aware that someone was messing with his dreams. So they were all staring at her, until eventually one of the projections stabbed her to death.

Good movie, the ending pissed me off.

Only because it cut before we saw whether the top would topple or not? Or for other reasons?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the top was toppling, there is no question about it. all in all a mediocre effort by Nolan.

[Wycket 36]

the top was toppling, there is no question about it. all in all a mediocre effort by Nolan.

All in all another laughable review by Joey.

[Delorean90 42]

Okay, I'm not gonna make a big long post right now--I loved the movie, and I'm gonna see it again next week. But I will say this: if the ending really was limbo, where did the airport come from? If the ending is someone else's dream (I don't know whose), why does the scene after the gun on the table have Cobb waking up, instead of just being somewhere? At this point I'm of the mind that the final shot is more-or-less a kind of a wink, but he has indeed made it back. I'll be seeing it again next week, though. I'm actually kind of trying to temper how much I read even now, as I kind of want to figure things out for myself a bit.

[Jay 37,359]

Limbo ends with Cobb talking to old Saito. After that, they kill each other (off-screen), causing them to wake up in the real world on the plane. Everything from that point on is reality.

Nolan cutting to black before we see the top stop is just a little wink to the audience

[indy4 155]

I just saw Inception for the second time. I picked up lots of little details that I hadn't before, but I still have a question: I now understand why the van going off the cliff didn't wake up the people in the snowy dream. However, I don't understand why Arthur didn't wake up, as he wasn't in a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream.

Nolan cutting to black before we see the top stop is just a little wink to the audience

I disagree. I think it's meant to provoke these types of conversations, although I think that Nolan intends a devoted fan to be able to determine concretely enough that it was indeed reality. It's an idea that actually parallels that of inception (the plan, not the film) - you've got a very simple shot of a top spinning, an idea that defines both the nature of the film as well as the reception it receives. One shot lasting mere seconds, one implication, has launched audiences across the world into uncertainty and interest. The same way these simple ideas function in the process of inception.

[Jay 37,359]

I just saw Inception for the second time. I picked up lots of little details that I hadn't before, but I still have a question: I now understand why the van going off the cliff didn't wake up the people in the snowy dream. However, I don't understand why Arthur didn't wake up, as he wasn't in a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream.

I think that's just a minor plot hole

I think it's meant to provoke these types of conversations, although I think that Nolan intends a devoted fan to be able to determine concretely enough that it was indeed reality. It's an idea that actually parallels that of inception (the plan, not the film) - you've got a very simple shot of a top spinning, an idea that defines both the nature of the film as well as the reception it receives. One shot lasting mere seconds, one implication, has launched audiences across the world into uncertainty and interest. The same way these simple ideas function in the process of inception.

Well yea, thats kinda what I meant. Cutting to black before we see the result is a purposeful non-ending. You could watch the film a million times, and never know for sure if the final scenes are in reality or a dream - there is no hidden clue that would define it one way or the other. Its purposely done to make you debate with others whether or not you think the end is real or not, even though there is no correct answer.

[indy4 155]

Well yea, thats kinda what I meant. Cutting to black before we see the result is a purposeful non-ending. You could watch the film a million times, and never know for sure if the final scenes are in reality or a dream - there is no hidden clue that would define it one way or the other. Its purposely done to make you debate with others whether or not you think the end is real or not, even though there is no correct answer.

Perhaps, but I think that Nolan intends him to be in reality. The wedding ring, the fact that Leo finally sees his children's faces, all suggest symbolically that the ending is in reality. Physically I'm not sure if you could prove on way or the other - but I think we can be pretty confident about what Nolan thinks.

[Jay 37,359]

Oh yea, I mean as far as I'm concerned he's in reality. And if Nolan wanted to say definitively he was, he would have shown the top stopping. But since he didn't, he purposely chose to leave it ambiguous

[indy4 155]

Yup, I agree.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Well if Nolan showed the top falling over, the ending wouldn't have been nearly as poignant. It's much more beautiful the way it was done.

[Jay 37,359]

Explain how an ambiguous ending is more "beautiful" then getting to see Cobb reunited with his kids and knowing that it was reality, it worked, everything he's been struggling to do has paid off and his battle is over

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Would the finale of LOST been more beautiful if Jack had lived? Would the ending of Shutter Island had been more beautiful had he just simply regressed and didn't know he was getting a lobotomy? I'm a sucker for self-sacrifice and protagonists' demise.

[Admiral Holdo 16]

Well, as far as he's concerned, it is real, isn't it? He doesn't even bother looking back at the top because he doesn't care anymore - he's with his children, that's what matters.

And besides, how boring is an ending that spells it out for you? "It happened exactly like this. The end."

[indy4 155]

Also, what I said earlier--the complexity and uncertainty that this simple shot has caused millions of moviegoers is a parallel to the entire idea of inception, how a simple idea planted in somebody's mind can grow to be much more powerful and defining (and in the case of Mal, uncertain) than the original idea itself.

And Koray, I'd go easy on the spoilers. Those stories you spoiled are from 2010--I'm sure tons of people reading this thread haven't had a chance to experience them yet.

[King Mark 3,631]

There's one other thing that points to it might be a dream at the end. The shot of the children in the backyard at the end is the same as the one in his memories/dreams and they haven't aged. Only it goes a bit further and we see their faces.

Since for some reason I didn't pick up on the top toppling thing earlier ,this why I thought he might still be dreaming

[indy4 155]

There's one other thing that points to it might be a dream at the end. The shot of the children in the backyard at the end is the same as the one in his memories/dreams and they haven't aged. Only it goes a bit further and we see their faces.

Hmmm that's a good point. How long was Leo seperated from his family? Another clue to suggest he's dreaming at the end is that apparently when Leo wakes up on the airplane, he's not connected to the dream machine. I suppose this could just be a mistake on the filmmakers part, or maybe his friends unplugged him after they woke up to try and save him.

And against the ageless child idea: you never see the kids faces until the end, so you can't really say they haven't aged just by looking at their backs. Also apparently their clothes are (very slightly) different at the end than they were in the memories.

[fommes 153]

What are you guys talking about? Of course it's still a dream. Very similar to Total Recall or Blade Runner; the films just make the audience ignore it so it becomes a discussion. But that really isn't the point. The point is to try and be ambivalent in a very black-and-white way, nothing beyond that (because all the rest is -rather simplistically- resolved by then), and that's why the film disappoints in the end. (I thought it had a good chance to really pull off a more P.K. Dick ending à la Ubik or The Three Stigmata.) The top being inception sounds good, but is too easy. Just like it is in the film: think about it: according to the film, the simple idea is that perhaps it's a dream and we need to wake up, which then spreads like a virus etc. But there is nothing to spread or to become complex: the only thing you can do is obsess over it, and then kill yourself. So, I'd say, don't obsess over it. The thing with the top was just a ridiculous and predictable trick. Moreover, in the film, on the same level of 'reality'/dreams as the end, Leo had already spun the top, and it stopped spinning, so it would have stopped spinning in the final shot, too. (Which doesn't mean it's reality; the top is just a false sign in my opinion that functions as wish fulfilment (in much the same way as a Hollywood audience would want the film to be reality in the end); after all, he did find the top in the deepest level of his dreams.)

[Red 75]

I just saw Inception for the second time. I picked up lots of little details that I hadn't before, but I still have a question: I now understand why the van going off the cliff didn't wake up the people in the snowy dream. However, I don't understand why Arthur didn't wake up, as he wasn't in a dream within a dream within a dream within a dream.

Arthur tells Ariadne at one point that if Yusuf drives the van off the bridge too early they'll miss the kick, and that's what happened. With the special sedative they were using it takes two synchronized kicks, as in you have to be kicked in both levels simultaneously. Arthur didn't have the second kick ready when the van went off the bridge so he wasn't awakened.

[indy4 155]

Oh, okay. Thanks.

[Jeff 10]

I think what makes the ending "beautiful" is that there is ample evidence for several possible scenarios, i.e., 1) Cobb was dreaming the whole time - and there are several people whose dream the film could have been, 2) there were portions of reality but Cobb never woke from limbo at the end, 3) Cobb woke from limbo and we take the ending at face value. What separates this from a "ridiculous, predictable trick," in my opinion, is that it wasn't simply a cop-out. True, similar devices have been used to get the audience thinking at the moment the screen goes black. However, this wasn't just a lazy, "throw a tantalizing final shot at the end" on Nolan's part. He must have painstakingly worked over this script and every shot to make sure there were enough clues to support each of the possible scenarios without completely disproving the others. It is a difficult balance to make a story just convoluted enough to generate deep contemplation without letting it collapse under its own weight. I think this story strikes the perfect balance.

The top was so vital to the film, it begged to be used in the final shot. Nolan basically had a choice - show the top fall over, or cut just before it did. I think that although letting it hit the ground would have made a lot of people happy, it wouldn't have fit the mood of the rest of the film. In short, I like the ending.

I also love how you can just watch the movie straight through and take it at face value without getting too confused. It's only when you start to rethink the whole movie at the end that your mind gets blown.

[indy4 155]

One thing I really noticed the second time around was how great the music is. It was definitely something different for Hans, although it stayed securely in his established style of music. Nolan really appreciates the score--it's mixed pretty loudly in the film. Screw waiting for an uber cheap release--I'm going to get this soundtrack ASAP!

[Trent Hoyt 13]

Good movie, the ending pissed me off.

Only because it cut before we saw whether the top would topple or not? Or for other reasons?

That's the only reason. There was no reason to not show the top toppling over.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

the top was toppling, there is no question about it. all in all a mediocre effort by Nolan.

All in all another laughable review by Joey.

and what have you contributed to the board?

[Delorean90 42]

One thing I really noticed the second time around was how great the music is. It was definitely something different for Hans, although it stayed securely in his established style of music. Nolan really appreciates the score--it's mixed pretty loudly in the film. Screw waiting for an uber cheap release--I'm going to get this soundtrack ASAP!

I was also pleasantly surprised by the score. I've got two very different themes stuck in my head right now: the main theme from How to Steal a Million, and the Dream motive from Inception. Something I really appreciated was that the motive gave the opportunity for some emotional lift in a unique way--the kind that I didn't get in the Batman scores. The hallway fight was a great example of this.

I also noticed that the music was mixed prominently--so much so that sometimes I was straining to hear what was being said (it was only a few moments, though).

[stewdog1 50]

Just saw the movie tonight and thought it was excellent.

Been reading through this thread and I think I need to bring up something that hasn't been talked about yet.

It has to do with the totem. That spinning top is not Cobb's totem. That is Mal's. If you remember early on he says that he lost something. I think he lost his totem at some point. He found Mal's when he planted the seed in her mind.

In addition, do you remember how near the end of the film Cobb tells Mal that he is going back up above? Mal says the same thing to him earlier in the film that she and kids will be waiting up above.

Because he doesn't have his own totem, he thinks that by using Mal's it is going to indicate that he is back in reality. Remember when the others won't let each other touch their totem as it would lose it's effectiveness?

What do you all think about that?

[King Mark 3,631]

Yeah. Another points towards being a dream at the end.

You know what doesn't work for me in movies in general? When a main character's love interest is already dead at the the beginning of the film and we only see through flashbacks.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

What's the problem with that?

[King Mark 3,631]

Because you don't care about the dead person or the relationship.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

Maybe you don't, but that's definitely not the case with me. When a love interest is gone, you get to witness how it drives and affects the protagonist, his/her motives and actions are all influenced by that missing person. Take The Road for example.

[stewdog1 50]

Yeah. Another points towards being a dream at the end.

You know what doesn't work for me in movies in general? When a main character's love interest is already dead at the the beginning of the film and we only see through flashbacks.

I don't think she's dead.

[Wycket 36]

the top was toppling, there is no question about it. all in all a mediocre effort by Nolan.

All in all another laughable review by Joey.

and what have you contributed to the board?

I will not stoop to your level. You insult stuff all the time and give no reason, and you get angry when people question your opinions, even though you state them as facts. I might not post here all the time, but at least when I do, I'm not trying to start trouble or make irreverent statements just to elicit a response.

[indy4 155]

I just return from a third viewing of Inception - not because it's good enough to warrant 3 viewings, but because a lot of my friends haven't seen it yet.

There's one other thing that points to it might be a dream at the end. The shot of the children in the backyard at the end is the same as the one in his memories/dreams and they haven't aged.

This is not true. First off, their clothing is a bit different. For instance, in all the memories the girl is wearing only a pink dress. In the end, the girl is wearing a pink dress with a clearly visible white T-shirt underneath. Also, you can't really tell if they've aged or not just by comparing their backs. Maybe if you saw their faces before. And finally, the shot itself it different - the kids aren't positioned the same way as they are in Leo's memories.

Also, I can confirm what somebody mentioned about the wedding ring - when Leo's in reality he's not wearing a ring, and when he's in a dream he is. In the end, he is not wearing a ring, thus it is probably reality.

Also, Leo and Ellen Page have very high praise for Hans Zimmer: http://www.facebook.com/inception?v=app_133803759983805