Howard Shore's An Unexpected Journey (Hobbit Part 1)

[Faleel 5,346]

No, I don't think that was it. The score on album was recorded first, but then the last few weeks of redoing sessions were spent on recording changes, resulting in the score as heard in film. At the time, Doug said thy were simply doing minor tweaks and adjustments, but it turned out to be more than that.

But Doug said:

"Many thanks for the kind comments! Unfortunately, this is one of those dangerous assumptions I'm talking about. The producers did not ask Shore to rewrite the score after it was complete. Nothing of the kind happened."

"Every score in The Lord of the Rings trilogy was subject to revisions, alterations, and edits. Concept pieces were created, early drafts were made, pieces were tweaked or revised entirely. It was all part of the collaborative process that Shore and Jackson use. The Hobbit was exactly the same, it just so happened that -- occasionally -- different choices were made for the album than were made for the film.

Of course, to a degree, this was also the case with the LOTR albums, but The Hobbit was a different kind of album. Something between the suites of the LOTR OSTs and the linearity of the CRs ... though leaning heavily toward the latter. It needed to flow in its own beautiful way."

You're simply hearing two expressions . None of that was the result of conflict. It was just a way to use this unique cre ative process to its full advantage."

[Ollie 1,059]

There's a ton of unreleased music in the film, that's just one example

This 'unreleased music' thing is confusing me - are you saying that the 'full score' blurb is simply untrue, or that the 'unreleased' bits are film versions of cues we have on the SE?

I'm seeing the film tomorrow and curious to hear how butchered this score is.

I think you'll be surprised by how un-butchered it actually sounds.

Correct.

[KK 3,307]

No, I don't think that was it. The score on album was recorded first, but then the last few weeks of redoing sessions were spent on recording changes, resulting in the score as heard in film. At the time, Doug said thy were simply doing minor tweaks and adjustments, but it turned out to be more than that.

But Doug said:

"Many thanks for the kind comments! Unfortunately, this is one of those dangerous assumptions I'm talking about. The producers did not ask Shore to rewrite the score after it was complete. Nothing of the kind happened."

"Every score in The Lord of the Rings trilogy was subject to revisions, alterations, and edits. Concept pieces were created, early drafts were made, pieces were tweaked or revised entirely. It was all part of the collaborative process that Shore and Jackson use. The Hobbit was exactly the same, it just so happened that -- occasionally -- different choices were made for the album than were made for the film.

Of course, to a degree, this was also the case with the LOTR albums, but The Hobbit was a different kind of album. Something between the suites of the LOTR OSTs and the linearity of the CRs ... though leaning heavily toward the latter. It needed to flow in its own beautiful way."

You're simply hearing two expressions . None of that was the result of conflict. It was just a way to use this unique cre ative process to its full advantage."

I think Doug was trying to say that Shore was not asked to rescore his work by others. Instead there were "adjustments" made.

I seriously doubt he recorded the past LotR material and composed new material at the same time.

[Faleel 5,346]

I don't have a hard time imagiining it, I mean, look at the FOTR CR prologue, its pretty much a mashup of Parth Galen, The Great Eye (or other statements of the History of the ring), Caras Galadhon, and A Shortcut To Mushrooms, with some original material sprinkled in there (EE Death of Isildur etc.).

[Jay 37,353]

Consider that there is literally no track on album that wasn't altered in the film!

The Adventure Begins, An Ancient Enemy, The Defiler, and A Thunder Battle were mostly untouched...

[gkgyver 1,645]

The first half of The Adventure Begins is very different in the film.

An Ancient Enemy lacks the choir in the second half.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't remember this amount of bitching and whining when FOTR was released on CD.

Enjoy the music guys!

[Jay 37,353]

The first half of The Adventure Begins is very different in the film.

Ah yes. I much prefer the album version

[Incanus 5,714]

Well after seeing the film a second time (in HFR 3D) I had opporturnity to focus more on the music and the tweaks and edits didn't sound so bad in places (ie normal film scoring revision) although I have to admit few of the revised moments had a pasted on feel to them (mostly involving the Shire material). The Misty Mountains theme renditions were all new as far as my ears could tell, no tracking involved, just somewhat similar arrangements of the theme heard several times.

And I had excellent time to take several concentrated listens of the Special Edition during my holiday. The music keeps getting better. I am especially a fan of the Dwarven music in this score, which has beautiful stoic pride, heroism and honor to it.

[KK 3,307]

I may be really slow to this, but I was recently made aware of the properties of one of the themes in the score. The heroic "adventure" theme that is presented in full form in the bonus cue "Erebor" might actually be an expanded variation of both the Erebor theme and Thorin's theme.

Does anyone else hear it?

[Incanus 5,714]

I can't hear any other connection than that they are all three Dwarven themes and thus follow similar progressions in general. The melody of the track Erebor appears in the score only once I think in World Is Ahead and is perhaps subtly quoted in sparser form in the rising fanfares in the Roast Mutton (more of these appear on the Extended Version).

But then again the bonus track is named Erebor, which might indeed note a connection between these ideas, one which I unfortunately have been too deaf to hear.

[crocodile 8,008]

I've been thinking about The Fate of the Ring motif. It appears on the album right before the Moon Runes scene. Maybe it is from the deleted scene when Bilbo is wandering around Rivendell and sees Narsil? Maybe he sees the painting that we know from FOTR as well? You can see a clip here (at 1:21)

It is still quite a loose connection, but the strongest I can think of.

Karol

[Incanus 5,714]

Actually the statement underscores Elrond greeting Gandalf at Rivendell so its meaning is a bit hazy in the Hobbit in my opinion.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,008]

Sorry, I don't follow every single detail here.

Karol

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crocodile 8,008]

Which doesn't mean it wasn't tracked into the welcome scene.

Karol

[crumbs 14,311]

So the "extended version" tracks are actually cues for the EE? PJ did say the EE was locked before the film itself was released, strangely.

[Jay 37,353]

No, not all of them. Just in this case.

[crumbs 14,311]

Ah, it's very confusing... Most of the other "extended" tracks are complete alternates to the film version, for example Radagast The Brown (Extended Version). It syncs to the film perfectly for a few minutes, then goes off on a musical tangent for about a minute, before syncing with the film again for the dark Necromancer/Dol Goldur material as the Bunny Sled pursues the spiders and approaches the dark tower.

So it seems this must have been a fairly early written as it scored material not in the final film, and was replaced entirely by an alternate cue.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,353]

Haven't noticed that before, I'll check it out in a little bit

[gkgyver 1,645]

Sounds fine to me.

[crocodile 8,008]

Does anyone else also likes Radagast's Bunny sled theme (for lack of better description), which appears when he flies the Dol Guldur fortress and then again during the Warg chase?

Hyms of the Battlefields from Soul of the Ultimate Nation

Karol

[Faleel 5,346]

I like it better in Warg Scouts.

I prefer the film version of Radagast's material.

[Jay 37,353]

Does anyone else also likes Radagast's Bunny sled theme (for lack of better description), which appears when he flies the Dol Guldur fortress and then again during the Warg chase?

Yea, it's great!

[crocodile 8,008]

There is some nice versions of it in the film, yeah. I like both.

Karol

[Jay 37,353]

Working on the hard facts right now of exactly how many minutes of unreleased music are in the film. Spoiler alert: It's a lot. A LOT.

[crocodile 8,008]

Good, a new release is needed then.

Karol

[gkgyver 1,645]

You do count the alternates, yes? Or just absolutely unreleased?

I like the theme, the bunnies are still questionable.

[KK 3,307]

I love the Radagast material, especially with the fiddle work.

And there is a good Radagast action cue on film that I'd like to get my hands on.

Working on the hard facts right now of exactly how many minutes of unreleased music are in the film. Spoiler alert: It's a lot. A LOT.

How much of that is the tracked/rehash material though?

[Jay 37,353]

I'll provide separate figures for both alternate film versions that we have album versions of, plus the many just regular old cues they simply didn't include on the CDs. There's a lot of those!

Oh, and the amount of small micro-edits within tracks on the CDs is staggering. The CDs probably have more microedits within tracks than any of the LOTR OSTs

[KK 3,307]

plus the many just regular old cues they simply didn't include on the CDs. There's a lot of those!

Are these LotR cues you're referring to? Cause I knew there's a huge chunk of the film that's like that.

Oh, and the amount of small micro-edits within tracks on the CDs is staggering. The CDs probably have more microedits within tracks than any of the LOTR OSTs

Yup. Noticed them a lot on my last viewing of the film. What's especially frustrating is that a lot of micro-edits were done with old LotR excerpts plugged in.

[Jay 37,353]

plus the many just regular old cues they simply didn't include on the CDs. There's a lot of those!

Are these LotR cues you're referring to? Cause I knew there's a huge chunk of the film that's like that.

What? No.... I'm referring to the many cues in the film that simply don't appear on the OST CDs at all. They are in between and around the cues that they did select to appear on the OSTs. There are WAY more unreleased cues that I originally realized, its staggering. Whoever told the marketing department that they should advertise the CDs as the complete score was just crazy!

[Faleel 5,346]

Yes, I really loved the unreleased bits of plan 9.

Seriously, its hard to pick out the action music, none of the Action Music on the OST has any of the good motifs in them, Brass Buttons for example, it doesnt really have a climax... where in the film it has that great bit of Plan 9.

[KK 3,307]

Oh I see.

The whole "complete score" thing was just another marketing ploy. I always knew 2 hours would never entail the complete score, but its as big a standard release you'll get of any score.

And it doesn't help how incredibly different the score turned out to be on film.

[Jay 37,353]

Well, there is roughly 2 hours, 20 minutes of score and songs in the final film. So the SE CD that runs 2 hours, 7 minutes falls 13 minutes short ON TOP of being filled with music that isn't in the film at all, leaving out much that is.

[crumbs 14,311]

Having gone through the OST with the film, I've noticed most of the micro-edits appear to be Plan 9 material or rehashed LOTR material, which Shore has judiciously removed from the OST. As mentioned, the great Plan 9 theme statement in Brass Buttons has been removed, as was the callback when Bilbo decides to spare Gollum's life (don't know the name of this theme, but it appears earlier in the film when Gandalf tells Bilbo "true courage is not knowing when to take a life, but when to spare one"), as is the speech by Bilbo to the Dwarves and the Plan 9 theme statement that follows that (before Out of the Frying Pan begins). And that's just within the space of 10 minutes or so.

*Spoiler about the Necromancer below*

On top of all that, I can't get over just how little of the music on the OST actually appears in the film. Shore's new material is constantly dialled out and replaced with rehashed LOTR material, while some clever LOTR references he did intend to include are dialled out in favour of silence (Sauron's theme when the Necromancer appears is silent in the film, perhaps because PJ considered it too much of a spoiler?).

[Jay 37,353]

I've noticed most of the micro-edits appear to be Plan 9 material or rehashed LOTR material, which Shore has judiciously removed from the OST.

No no no.... there are LOTS of other micro-edits removing 100% Shore material

the callback when Bilbo decides to spare Gollum's life (don't know the name of this theme, but it appears earlier in the film when Gandalf tells Bilbo "true courage is not knowing when to take a life, but when to spare one"), as is the speech by Bilbo to the Dwarves and the Plan 9 theme statement that follows that (before Out of the Frying Pan begins). And that's just within the space of 10 minutes or so.

A Hobbit's Understanding.

[gkgyver 1,645]

I've noticed most of the micro-edits appear to be Plan 9 material or rehashed LOTR material, which Shore has judiciously removed from the OST.

No no no.... there are LOTS of other micro-edits removing 100% Shore material

You realise this just now?

It came to me that it may actually have been Howard Shore's own choice to reuse those LotR cues, you know. Doug doesn't lie, and that is really the only possible explanation. I can see that he thought it needs more direct quotes to recreate the LotR feeling.

[KK 3,307]

Could it be that Doug doesn't know the whole story?

I mean think about it Georg. Is it really so logical that Shore would copy and paste literal passages. Or remove more interesting treatments of past themes with direct quotations? I mean just look at the Riddles in the Dark cue. So many great variations of the ring theme, all tossed out the window for same old stuff from LotR.

Assuming Shore is not behind the reuse of LotR cues is not illogical. It fits in with the film's overbearing need to rely on LotR nostalgia. You could tell Jackson was sort of standing off the feet of the past films.

At the very least, there must be a 3rd party involved that had Shore be "unsatisfied" with his original work.

But to be honest, most of the score in the film sounds too tracked to sound like a creative decision on the composer's part.

[Jay 37,353]

There's tons of brilliant unreleased music in the film that has nothing to do with LOTR material

[KK 3,307]

Tons? My memory must be a bit hazy. I know there are many epic sequences I'd love to get my hands on (namely the choral music for the Eagles and the Carrock). And while I'd like all those statements of the Misty Mountains theme, it just appears too much in film.

I suppose I'm still bitter over how many times "A Hobbit's Understanding" is quoted in film. Or other moments where a theme from LotR is quoted to no end. I recall one instance in the first Shire scene with Freeman, where the mysterious map motif is quoted about 2-3 times with no variation from how it was portrayed in FotR, contrary to its more varied statement on album.

[Incanus 5,714]

Well I wouldn't call it exactly tons of brilliant unreleased material (in comparison with what we have on the OST) but there are several great film cues unreleased.

[Matt C 453]

There's tons of brilliant unreleased music in the film that has nothing to do with LOTR material

Oh yes. But I also miss the original music Shore composed for several scenes (which made it on the CD), but Jackson saw fit to slap in pre-existing music in. The more I listen to Shore's Hobbit score, the more I like it.

And yes, that soaring choral music for the Eagles and rescuing the dwarfs is sadly missing. I loved that cue.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,714]

Well I wouldn't call it exactly tons of brilliant unreleased material (in comparison with what we have on the OST).

Wrong.

Firstly, don't steal Jason's catch phrases. Not cool at all.

Secondly. You list 7 favourite unreleased moments yourself BB. Which is not tons.

But think on the bright side. There is bound to be a CR in the future with all that music on it.

[fommes 153]

As I've said in my review (which you clearly didn't read), that theme doesn't appear a lot in the film (probably less times than the Fellowship theme in LOTR. Here are all the statements of the theme:

1. When the Dwarves sing the Misty Mountains song in Bag-End

2. The World Is Ahead.

3. Roast Mutton.

4. Over Hill.

5. During the discussion between Bilbo and Bofur.

6. Twice during the escape from Goblintown.

7. During Bilbo's speech, right before Out Of The Frying-Pan.

8. During Out of The Frying-Pan (where it seems obviously tracked).

Only 9 times in a 2H30 film. And out of these, only the statement in Out Of The Frying-Pan felt like it was too much, really.

That's surprising. I saw the film once, and "tons" was the word I'd describe the use of this theme for me too.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[crumbs 14,311]

Whatever ends up the CR will be a total mess. Will it be what ended up in the film? Jackson's vision? Shore's original vision? Shore's revised vision before Jackson became all Lucas-in-prequels-mode?

With the last CR releases, they went with Shore's vision before PJ started hacking things up. The Hobbit seems like a much more complicated score.