polychords and pedal point

[tedfud 39]

When does one become the other ? JW's use of both does seem to be a signature part of his sound. In trying to get to grips with this technique and I am noticing there seems to be a narrow line between them. For instance in "rebel blockade runner" we appear to have an ostinato pedal ( referencing the Mars rhythm ) In C with the rebel fanfare starting on Ab Maj . Is this a use of chromatic pedal ? or a polychord ?

t

[karelm 3,077]

As the name implies, polychords are multiple independent chords. It can be confusing because the same notes overlapped might be a cluster but if there is intervallic or harmonic space, you can identify them as chords. A simple example is to imagine C major triad and play d flat major triad an octave above. Those are two chords...polychords. It will get a little more complex if you have extended harmony. For example, play B minor chord (B, D, F#). (more on this later) But a beat later, play a low G. Is this a pedal G, a B minor flat 6 (the G being a flat 6) or a G maj 7? The answer can be determined by what is the role of G. If it's a persistent element, it is a pedal than can be thought as serving a harmonic task even though the B minor is heard independently. For example, in Superman, before the second hero theme is heard, the pedal G acts as a dominant to emphasize the triumphant return to the tonic home key of C when the next theme begins. If the low note has an important harmonic function, you can place a different chord on top of it and the ear will hear it as still serving the harmonic role of a dominant. This is much easier demonstrated. But if you imagine you are in the key of C and playing a G pedal, what ever chord is on top is still going to sound like a dominant chord if the root goes from G to C because the roots are playing a powerful harmonic function.

Listen to 1:15 of Superman for an excellent example of the C as pedal point rather than harmonic role:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGUyNy07ZYg

Now listen to G as pedal point acting as dominant harmony to the return of C (starting at 2:00) of the same clip.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AGUyNy07ZYg

BUT, if it is not in the key of C, you might not have the same note serving that same function. Another way to say this is context matters. Case in point - Star Wars main theme near the end, you have a G in the bass but delayed a quarter rest after the B minor. This is what I was describing earlier in the response. Is this a pedal, polychord, B min flat 6, or something else? It is actually a G major 7. The bass and context will give it away.

Listen at 5:24 of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_D0ZQPqeJkk (the cymbal accent with the loud brass is the B min and the low notes are persistent G's delayed a quarter rest). So I wouldn't hear this as a dominant but rather a G maj7. It is almost like JW is resisting the resolution by dancing with other chords based on a root of G. He does something similar in Superman. In general, it is important that a composer knows how to build and release tension. Dominant is furthest away from the home key so can be thought of as maximum tension. Rather than return to the home key, JW starts substituting other chords that serve the same dominant function. Since the western listener expects a dominant to go to the tonic, he adds another dominant instead and thereby amps up the tension. and then does so again...so when you finally arrive in the pure tonic triad, there is a tremendous release - a big arrival because your previous expectations were denied. Great musicianship here that it is done so seamlessly and with perfect dramatic flare.

This was probably confusing so hopefully others will chime in.

[tedfud 39]

Hi

thanks for these examples....they are good ones of pedal point. But what about the "Rebel Blockade Runner" . Is that just animated polychord ? i presume you can have a chromatic pedal point ? can a chromatic pedal point be a sustained part of a polychord. I know in the "rebel Blockade runner" it just sounds like octaves in the bass against the chords but is that still defining a polychord ?

I noticed you do this yourself in the rather fab "heroic Theme" . A sustained rhythm on G octaves in the bass and the opening riff settles on Eb Maj. then you move to Ab ( bass moves up a beat later, nice trick ) Then E and Bb ?.......

ace track

t

[karelm 3,077]

Hi

thanks for these examples....they are good ones of pedal point. But what about the "Rebel Blockade Runner" . Is that just animated polychord ? i presume you can have a chromatic pedal point ? can a chromatic pedal point be a sustained part of a polychord. I know in the "rebel Blockade runner" it just sounds like octaves in the bass against the chords but is that still defining a polychord ?

t

Sorry, forgot about the blockade question. I think there are a few things here but I would see this as an ostinato pedal. Think of the fact that you have those famous giant Mars clashes before - C5 and D flat major. These build and build and what you are left with is that same hammering figure of the C's being pounded out as an ostinato. Maximum dissonance of the "rebel" theme is heard in D flat major. Sort of dramatically acting as if you have the might of the empire in conflict with the heroics of the rebels. I wouldn't call this a polychord because there is one chord over C. High tension since the strings are unison C and the rebels are D flat major/Aflat. It can also be called D flat maj 7/C but since the C is a hold over from the previous ostinato - it seems like a persistent element rather than a chord tone. I would call the build up before this section polychordal - D flat/ C5.

I noticed you do this yourself in the rather fab "heroic Theme" . A sustained rhythm on G octaves in the bass and the opening riff settles on Eb Maj. then you move to Ab ( bass moves up a beat later, nice trick ) Then E and Bb ?.......

ace track

t

Thanks! Yes, I am a student of JW...figuratively I mean. Yes, it starts with six octaves of G. Strings have a motor ostinato rhythm (all G) where the brass dances around it with some dissonance until the theme starts in the key of C minor. So in short, I have a dominant start that after a few fanfares eventually arrives at the climactic tonic. Anyway, for my piece, the heralding brass chords are E major/A flat -> B flat maj -> C min. I put in dissonant rubs quite a bit and wanted to have the bass line follow behind the high notes so that they all arrive together on the c minor that the piece is in. Tried to make it a more contemporary take on a JW style heroic theme so used some elements of his with my own style too.

[tedfud 39]

'' E major/A flat "

is that a flat bass ?

"I put in dissonant rubs quite a bit"

what are these.....?

t

[karelm 3,077]

'' E major/A flat "

is that a flat bass ?

"I put in dissonant rubs quite a bit"

what are these.....?

t

Basically just that for half the bar there is a delay or suspension before the resolution of each chord until the C min. The dissonant rub - just my saying there is this friction (rub) between dissonant intervals. For example, a wrong note here or there either borrowed from another scale or just adding some spice. JW is full of that. For example, he'll often use a #11, 9 or 7th in the melody.

[tedfud 39]

ok...how do you write ? straight into a DAW , or piano first ?

sorry for all the questions , just want to learn

t

[karelm 3,077]

Sure no problem. Of course the work method of every composer is unique to them so best to find your own pattern. I found that I am more creative in the morning so melodies and problem passages (for instance a bridge that just doesn't work) I'll do early in the morning. I prefer to write with sketch paper and piano then go to notation to orchestrate it. I don't do DAW unless that is what the final product needs to be. I am just not very fast at it so it slows things for me rather than help my process. Sometimes I will put a passage into the DAW to hear it better realized and then revise but I would consider this the editing phase. I tend to write quickly but take a long time to edit. Others, might take long to write but hardly revise at all. Afternoon and evening work will be more craft oriented then creative so for example, creating parts or orchestrating but if I need to come up with an original orchestration, that will probably happen early in the day. I just tend to fizzle out as the day goes on.

Some general tips for you on learning to compose and JW style:

1. Analyze some of his piano scores since they are easier to study like Superman, Jurrasic Park, Star Wars, Private Ryan, etc. You'll see patterns emerge.

2. Lots of major 7th on the top.

3. lots of sus chords with dominant root and sub dominant on top.

4. Quartal voicings

5. Lydian

6. #11, 9, 7ths are favorites of his especially in the melody. I recall in Jurassic theme for instance.

7. Tonic and dominant pedal tones.

8. Keep the contrasts coming. JW loves contrasts of all sorts...piccolo with tuba, static harmony followed by active harmony, etc. fresh orchestration, etc.

9. Use lots of borrowing and other chromatic chords (jazz or classical) for diatonic melodic tones.

10. Ask others. I am by no means an expert but have struggled through the basics already so trying to dive deeper too. Some will realize something I miss and vise versa. Great to have a study group.

11. Clever use of repeats. JW is a master at knowing what should be restated and when it has outlived its welcome and he needs something new. I find this especially true in his accompaniment. For example, when others might repeat an arpeggio, he'll add a new element to it..change the rhythm just a little, or a new non-chord tone or something that suddenly elevates it beyond a cut and paste but to something where every note was sculpted.

[tedfud 39]

magic....very helpful. thanks

t

[Sharkissimo 1,974]

To cut to the chase, this passage is polytonal but not polychordal. You have the Rebel Fanfare, which consists of planing major triads harmonising an octatonic melody (which is the derived from the Subtonic Half-Cadence in Luke's Theme - VIIb->VI->VIIb->V). The pedal point ostinato implies another tonality without stating it outright.

[tedfud 39]

got it.....

t

[tedfud 39]

So this is from "twentieth century harmony " by persichetti.

Does JW favour any particular dissonance or chord for his pedals ? . I like the way Persichetti describes the outcome as restless....a very useful tool in soundtracks....

T

[Sharkissimo 1,974]

That looks more like a 6-5 Major 7th than a Dim 7th.

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Yeah....

The classic parallel major/minor triads with octatonic root movement over a tonic pedal comes to mind as a favored JW trick.

[tedfud 39]

Yeah....

The classic parallel major/minor triads with octatonic root movement over a tonic pedal comes to mind as a favored JW trick.

could you please expand...

t

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

In what way?

[tedfud 39]

That looks more like a 6-5 Major 7th than a Dim 7th.

huh...confused..three minor thirds...surely a fully dim 7 chord no ?

t

In what way?

like this ?

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Yes, though the pedal is a single tone, in unison or octaves. So just a C. He does this quite a bit in Star Wars and Indiana Jones.

That is a major 7th as Sharky said by the way. There's only one minor third... where are you getting the other two from?

[tedfud 39]

from the bottom

f sharp...c...e flat ....a......surely a dim 7 ?

t

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

Oh is that sharp on the D? Gotta adjust the old glasses.

[tedfud 39]

yup...same problem here . So this pedal point buisness. In the persichetti example the pedal is a chord . Does that ever happen with williams. Because I seem to have ended up back to where i started this thread...IE: a simple drone with chords from a different ( or many different ) key over the top. Is there not a more nuanced approach in JW's writings at times ?

t

[Code 000. Destruct. 0. 4,260]

I'm certain that happens in his music plenty. Throw on a score and listen for it! And I guarantee it'll be more nuanced than what you see in an isolated theoretical example, yes.

[Sharkissimo 1,974]

Apologies. I'm one of those astigmatics who goes around like he's got 20/20 vision and thinks he's better things to spend £ on than frames/lenses, and then I make a daft error like that.

The kind of thing you referring to there t, the tripple pedal, is more something you hear with Alex North. He was influenced by Milhaud and other modernists of the 20s/30s (Honneger, Prokofiev, DSH, Ruggles, Ives, Cowell etc.).

I'll send you some North.

[tedfud 39]

got it thanks...Yes i hear this in Prokofiev...especially his film scores. I guess there's a fine line between a triple pedal against another key and polytonailty. As LUDWIG is fond of saying , the simplest explanation is the best.

I noticed in another thread you wonder weather this principle was reversed ? with pedal high in pitch and the accompaniment low . An "inverted pedal "....I'm sure this is true.

t

[Sharkissimo 1,974]

I noticed in another thread you wonder weather this principle was reversed ? with pedal high in pitch and the accompaniment low . An "inverted pedal "....I'm sure this is true.

It's something you hear a lot in pop. i.e. the guitarist plays a constant riff (which slight variations) for 8 bars while the bassist and/or rhythm guitarist /keyboardist provides a different bass note or chord in each bar.

[tedfud 39]

I noticed in another thread you wonder weather this principle was reversed ? with pedal high in pitch and the accompaniment low . An "inverted pedal "....I'm sure this is true.

It's something you hear a lot in pop. i.e. the guitarist plays a constant riff (which slight variations) for 8 bars while the bassist and/or rhythm guitarist /keyboardist provides a different bass note or chord in each bar.

he's learning the song

t

[Sharkissimo 1,974]

I noticed in another thread you wonder weather this principle was reversed ? with pedal high in pitch and the accompaniment low . An "inverted pedal "....I'm sure this is true.

It's something you hear a lot in pop. i.e. the guitarist plays a constant riff (which slight variations) for 8 bars while the bassist and/or rhythm guitarist /keyboardist provides a different bass note or chord in each bar.

he's learning the song

t

I know. It's something we take for granted, but it's had quite a profound impact on film music.

[tedfud 39]

true

t