help me: JW and the low end of the brass section

[Guest]

My first post:

Having no formal education in music, I can't always tell what instruments are playing the parts. Does anyone know how often JW uses standard trombone at the bottom of the register vs. bass trombone vs. tuba for the really deep brass parts, usually in the action cues? If an expert could give comparison examples (just explanation, you don't need to make sound files or anything ) from the tracks that would be totally awesome of you. I'm most familiar with all the Star Wars scores, Indy, Superman and E.T. so maybe you could stick to those?

[Guest]

Usually he uses a combination of french horns and trombones. If you can hear different "deep brass" on each side of the stereo image, you can be almost certain that it is french horns on one side, trombones on the other. Bass trombone(s) should be pretty recognizable because of the deep, ooomphy tone. Tubas are softer. Williams uses tubas a lot, often also for melodies.

[charlesk 0]

I can't tell how often, but I'll give you my insights. Williams reinforced the low brass used in standard orchestra, with more bass trombones. Normal trombones have this metallic, raspy sound, but don't have too much dept in the bass. Williams combines trombones, bass trombones and french horns at unison (playing octaves). Tuba is used not quite at unison in those passages too fast for the tuba. Going very low in the register of these instruments (all brass instruments) makes them sluggish and ineffective for fast notes. He pushes them to the lower register in long notes, while other instruments (Bass strings) play the fast notes.

[SkyMaker 0]

Pardon me folks, but all the explanations above are very general and even based on speculation.

Any of you actually studied Williams orchestral manuscript?

The question asked by the originator are too generalized also. It's a bit like asking are cakes very sweet? Some are, some aren't.

I think you need to ask specific question, to specific piece, at a specific point of the music. Otherwise, it's impossible to answer. It's a bit like asking, "How big is a country? You could stick with the Northern Hemisphere.

As for me, having studied many of Williams orchestral manuscript, anything can and does happen to his brass section, all depending on the sonorities he is depicting.

Simon mentioned:

"Usually he uses a combination of french horns and trombones. If you can hear different "deep brass" on each side of the stereo image, you can be almost certain that it is french horns on one side, trombones on the other."

This is not true. Trombones doesn't neccesarily cover the deep notes. There are parts of Olympic Fanfare, which I conducted, that had trombones play the middle voices. In this case, it's the Tuba that covers the bass notes.

Plus, French Horns duties are to cover the middle voices, and don't cover bass parts hardly at all. So, it's erroneous to say that deep brass are involving horns.

"Bass trombone(s) should be pretty recognizable because of the deep, ooomphy tone."

Again this is false, since bass trombones are not at all recognizable unless they play the range below the tenor trombones that's written on the score. Bass trombones also frequently covers the tenor range. And when that happens, it's impossible to tell which one is the bass trombone.

"Tubas are softer". This is true. But by all means they're not sissies.

Charlesk mentioned:

"Williams reinforced the low brass used in standard orchestra, with more bass trombones."

Completely false. There is usually only one bass trombone. It's very rare he uses more. And if he does, it's mostly the tenor trombone, not for more power, but mainly for more harmonic voicing. Sometimes it's for more power, but that's not the primary intent. It's more like that, since it's there already, use it when it's available, to increase tonal thickness. But Williams would never use extra brass for the sole purpose of more power.

"Normal trombones have this metallic, raspy sound, but don't have too much dept in the bass."

Very false. With good players, trombones can sound almost horn-like, mellow in tone and smooth. Also, it's false "normal" trombones, which I gather is meant as tenor, don't have much depth. Of course they don't have as much depth as bass trombone or tuba, but they're capable of low notes and depth.

"Williams combines trombones, bass trombones and french horns at unison (playing octaves)."

Which particular music and bars are you talking about? He rarely does this unless he wants a blunt and bold statement. This technique of orchestration you spoke of are very powerful, and must be used sparingly, since balance can be thrown out, very easily.

"Tuba is used not quite at unison in those passages too fast for the tuba."

This is false, too. It's true that Tuba's speak slower than trombones, but with a pro player, they're surprisingly pretty agile. Of course, you can't kill them with super fast passages. But mostly, they can hold their own.

"Going very low in the register of these instruments (all brass instruments) makes them sluggish and ineffective for fast notes."

This is only circumstancial. It all depends by how fast and how low. No brass instrument can be as agile as strings.

"He pushes them to the lower register in long notes, while other instruments (Bass strings) play the fast notes."

This is not neccesarily true, too. It depends whether the low brass are to carry the bass and the double bass are to carry the rhythm, which of course your comment would be true. But there are many times where brass bass plays exactly with the double bass, even though it's tougher on the brass. Again, this is all depending on the expertise of the players.

[Ren 75]

I think you need to ask specific question, to specific piece, at a specific point of the music. Otherwise, it's impossible to answer.

well, it seems as though you just gave specific answers to a not so specific question. Although some (or all) may be flattered by your expertise in JW orchestrational techniques, I don't think that your 'specific' generalizations to a broad topic are completely true. Please tell us of your specific scores you have in mind since you said you required them to answer the question. It's great to know about your knowledge, but back it up if you are telling others to.

[SkyMaker 0]

"I don't think that your 'specific' generalizations to a broad topic are completely true. Please tell us of your specific scores you have in mind since you said you required them to answer the question. It's great to know about your knowledge, but back it up if you are telling others to."

Ren,

to save you from any embarrassment of picking a fight to the topic of being specific, please be specific as to which part of my comments you want me to back up.

I am not trying to impress anyone with my knowledge of Williams, it's just that I could very easily tell that those contributors are making plain assumptions on their comments.

Which part sounded offensive to you, and why?

Just tell me which part you wanted to know, and I'll give you specific bars of specific piece.

But somehow I sense that you are not asking to learn of my comments, but to challenge my comments. Forgive me if I am mistaken, it's only giving some impression of such, on my part.

Plus, your comments,

"I don't think that your 'specific' generalizations to a broad topic are completely true"

This is true. Even though we know violins are played by putting it under the chin, I've seen some would play it by their legs, with each arm on the opposite sides.

Also, even though pianos are supposed to be played by hands, there is someone who plays it with his toes.

So, there are exceptions to everything. Is that what you wanted me to say? Which if you read carefully, you'll actually find it in my comments.

But, the way that those comments were made, sounded like it was the norm. So, if they were talking about the exceptions, then I am mistaken to assume that they were talking of the norm.

All I did were to rectify what the norm is. I am familiar enough with Williams' orchestration that I know he doesn't brake out of his technique unless he is working on a particular sonority, or effect. Of course he is always striving to innovate, but that's different than the comments made that made it sound like they're Williams' actual techniques.

So, which part of my comments you want me to back up, other than the Olympic Fanfare that I had mentioned?

There are others too, such as not being able to indentify which notes are played by the bass trombones. I'll give you the pieces (if you wish) that I had commented on, and you let me know which notes are the bass trombones and which aren't.

I'd like to ask you, and quoting you again, "I don't think that your 'specific' generalizations to a broad topic are completely true"

Please provide back up with this comment of yours? Tell me which examples that you don't think it's true? I am all open to learning, because I don't pretend that I know every single note of every score of Williams.

Heck, even Williams don't remember his past works, as commented by him, when he spoke of his friend, Steven Spielberg, who knows his own music that he had forgotten long ago.

But you know what? I'll start with being specific with my comments, then it's your turn of being specific with your feelings of it not being completely true. OK?

Simon mentioned:

"Usually he uses a combination of french horns and trombones. If you can hear different "deep brass" on each side of the stereo image, you can be almost certain that it is french horns on one side, trombones on the other."

This is not true. Trombones doesn't neccesarily cover the deep notes. There are parts of Olympic Fanfare, which I conducted, that had trombones play the middle voices. In this case, it's the Tuba that covers the bass notes.

OLYMPIC FANFARE STARTING FROM BARS 12. (THERE ARE SO MANY EXAMPLES THAT ARE SCATTERED)

Plus, French Horns duties are to cover the middle voices, and don't cover bass parts hardly at all. So, it's erroneous to say that deep brass are involving horns.

OPEN ANY WILLIAMS SCORE, AND SEE FOR YOURSELF.

"Bass trombone(s) should be pretty recognizable because of the deep, ooomphy tone."

Again this is false, since bass trombones are not at all recognizable unless they play the range below the tenor trombones that's written on the score. Bass trombones also frequently covers the tenor range. And when that happens, it's impossible to tell which one is the bass trombone.

OLYMPIC FANFARE BAR 12, PLEASE TELL ME WHICH ONE IS THE BASS TROMBONE?

Charlesk mentioned:

"Williams reinforced the low brass used in standard orchestra, with more bass trombones."

Completely false. There is usually only one bass trombone. It's very rare he uses more. And if he does, it's mostly the tenor trombone, not for more power, but mainly for more harmonic voicing. Sometimes it's for more power, but that's not the primary intent. It's more like that, since it's there already, use it when it's available, to increase tonal thickness. But Williams would never use extra brass for the sole purpose of more power.

OPEN ANY WILLIAMS SCORE, AND SEE IF YOU CAN FIND BASS TROMBONE FOR THE PURPOSES OF MORE BASS.

"Normal trombones have this metallic, raspy sound, but don't have too much dept in the bass."

Very false. With good players, trombones can sound almost horn-like, mellow in tone and smooth. Also, it's false "normal" trombones, which I gather is meant as tenor, don't have much depth. Of course they don't have as much depth as bass trombone or tuba, but they're capable of low notes and depth.

ASK ANY TROMBONE PLAYER.

"Williams combines trombones, bass trombones and french horns at unison (playing octaves)."

Which particular music and bars are you talking about? He rarely does this unless he wants a blunt and bold statement. This technique of orchestration you spoke of are very powerful, and must be used sparingly, since balance can be thrown out, very easily.

CAN YOU FIND IT FOR ME ON A WILLIAMS' SCORE?

"Tuba is used not quite at unison in those passages too fast for the tuba."

This is false, too. It's true that Tuba's speak slower than trombones, but with a pro player, they're surprisingly pretty agile. Of course, you can't kill them with super fast passages. But mostly, they can hold their own.

OLYMPIC FANFARE FROM BAR 85, BASS TROMBONES AND TUBA PLAYS THE RHYTHM.

"Going very low in the register of these instruments (all brass instruments) makes them sluggish and ineffective for fast notes."

This is only circumstancial. It all depends by how fast and how low. No brass instrument can be as agile as strings.

AS EVIDENCED ON BAR 85, ONWARDS.

"He pushes them to the lower register in long notes, while other instruments (Bass strings) play the fast notes."

This is not neccesarily true, too. It depends whether the low brass are to carry the bass and the double bass are to carry the rhythm, which of course your comment would be true. But there are many times where brass bass plays exactly with the double bass, even though it's tougher on the brass. Again, this is all depending on the expertise of the players.

AS EVIDENCED ON BAR 85, ONWARDS.

THERE ARE MANY OTHER EXAMPLES, BUT THAT WOULD BE FUTILE UNLESS YOU'RE REALLY WANTING TO KNOW FOR EDUCATION PURPOSES RATHER THAN FOR THE SIMPLE FACT THAT YOU WANT A CHALLENGE.

IF YOUR PURPOSE IF FOR A CHALLENGE, JUST START STUDYING WILLIAMS SCORE, AND YOU'LL FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF.

[Ren 75]

Chill,

All I wanted was for you to back up your previous comments with specific scores since that is what you were commenting about. I think just about everyone here knows I'm not the type to pick a fight. YOU needn't be so harsh.

[Ren 75]

Please tell us of your specific scores you have in mind since you said you required them to answer the question.

I never said I required them to answer the question. I had no intention of answering the question.

[Ren 75]

I'd like to ask you, and quoting you again, "I don't think that your 'specific' generalizations to a broad topic are completely true"  

Please provide back up with this comment of yours? Tell me which examples that you don't think it's true. I am all open to learning, because I don't pretend that I know every single note of every score of Williams.

What I meant was - how can I take what you 'specifically' generalize as true without the scores to back it up? Like you said you needed the scores to answer the question, but you answered anyway. So I just wanted to find out where you are getting your info from so I may look it up on my own.

[billybobab 0]

Back to the topic, Williams uses trombones frequently in his music, but not in high registers, and for solos. He prefers the mellow sound of the French horn for those. As far as really deep sounds, I am not sure. I never really listened for them.

Billybobab

[SkyMaker 0]

Ren,

Forgive me if I went a little too far. I am not offended, but was just a little surprised.

[Frosty 0]

It depends on the sound he wants.

Listen to the theme from the "Lost World". At one point he has all trombones play a 'pedal' A, which is 3 ledger lines below the bass clef staff.

It gives it a dark, heavy, growling tone. (same thing happens in Hedwig's Theme)

Take the low brass and low string hits in "Olympic Fanfare and Theme". It is scored for 3 tenor trombones and 1 bass trombone and 1 tuba. Tenor bones play their note with tuba and bass trombone an octave lower.

The opening fanfare in Liberty fanfare is trumpets, horns and bones playing in their upper registers, a very majestic, solid sound. Tuba then adds to the bottom of the forray, but its last note is a D above middle C, which is the extreme upper register of the instrument.

A lot of times, a bass trombone will double the tuba for some reinforcement, adding an edge to the tuba tone.

Being a trombone player and composer and studying Williams scores for years, Williams low brass writing is actually evolved quite a bit over the years. Williams has a tendency to either score for 3 or 4 trombones (Liberty Fanfare scored with 3 bones, and Raiders march scored with 4 bones), but only 1 tuba. Goldsmith actually has scored many pieces with 3 bones and 2 tubas (Alien being a prime example) and 6 horns, which makes a completely different sound than Williams 4 horns, 3 bones and 1 tuba scoring. Williams competely uses the upper range of the trombones definitely. Thats how he gets that bright, beautifully majestic brass sound. It is NOT Trumpets and French horns only doing the fanfare stuff. It is usually trumpets and trombones and octave apart with horns filling the middle. You can hear the difference. Most composers use only Trumpets and French horns for their fanfares and you can tell it doesn't have nearly the power if you were to add Trombones to it (Trumpets and Trombone have the same range, only an octave apart) Trombones are more agile than you realize, but not as agile, and their tone is beautifully warm and full. You get a Trombone playing in it middle to upper register, you will be hard pressed to distinguish it from a French Horn playing in the same register.

A trombone has a 3+ octave range (some players go way beyond that), but the tuba actually has the greatest range of any instrument in the orchestra (French Horns a close second, but a French Horn is actually a alto/soprano tuba), with nearly a 5 octave range, plus the agility of a Trumpet or French Horn. But mainly it is a bass reinforcing instrument.

Hopefully shedding a bit more light.

Frosty

[Ren 75]

It's ok