David Coscina

You wouldn't be elated if Powell won? I sure would be!

Well, Desplat does seem to be an Oscar darling although always the bridesmaid never the bride in his case. HP shouldn't garner anything else mind you so perhaps you're right. I disagree that Powell's HTTYD will go unnoticed. Rotten tomatoes gave the film 98% (one of the all time highest ratings) and the music is so prominently incorporated into the film that almost every viewer, musically inclined or not, loved Powell's score. Giacchino won his Oscar last year largely because of the 5 minute montage "Married Life" for UP!. Can anyone really remember a whole lot of the rest of the score? Powell has more than one standout track where the music is so integral to the scene- "Forbidden Friendship" and "Test Flight" are two prime examples. It helps that the sequences themselves were amazingly well directed. As for the rationale that animated scores don't win back to back, um, remember the '90s and Alan Menken? He won Oscars for Little Mermaid, Beauty and the Beast, Aladdin, and I think one other one but I don't remember, all in the span of 4 years. So it is very much possible. Zimmer won for Lion King for 1994. Actually now I have to list it 1989- Little Mermaid (Menken) 1990- Dances with Wolves (John Barry) 1991- Beauty and the Beast (Menken) 1992- Aladdin (Menken) 1993- Schindler's List (Williams) 1994- Lion King (Zimmer) 1995- English Patient (Yared) and then we start getting away from animated Best Scores for a while. I think they split the categories up for a while actually.

Just got my signed Giacchino Let Me In CD from Dark Delicacies. Cool. What a terrific score BTW. I have to say that there have been some really terrific scores out in 2010. With guys like Giacchino, Powell, and Desplat getting primo jobs, the landscape of film music is looking brighter.

Just to be clear, Powell's HTTYD could very well be the score of the year. The more I listen to it, the more cohesion in its architecture is present. Almost every cue has some overt or minute variation of the principles themes. This kind of attention to detail and the development of major theme groups is, frankly, unprecedented in any MV-RC scores I have heard up until now. The level of writing on this score is pretty darn close to Goldsmith or Williams I'd wager- not necessarily in its sound palette or chord schemes but how the music follows the narrative but plays so well away from its filmic counterpart. I love the music where Hiccup and Astrid fly into the dragon's lair where Powell infuses a sense of wonderment into the cue which is a drawn out variation of the Toothless Theme. In fact, every cue has something interesting to offer. There is a certain Goldsmithian muscularity to the Viking's Theme that recalls The 13th Warrior but doesn't reference it directly. I like that. I have watched this film over 20 times paying particular attention to the music and it just keeps amazing and dazzling me. I love Desplat's Harry Potter music but honestly don't care to watch the film. I never liked the series to be honest. So in this capacity, I think Powell would get my vote for Best Composer for 2010 and I do hope he picks up an Oscar for How To Train Your Dragon. The music is such a prominent character in the film. It's a superb achievement.

I will be as bold to say that none of the HP series has achieved the same level of cinematic greatness as those other franchises mentioned. I think in terms of filmmaking, they leave a lot to be desired and the only reason I had any interest in them myself was because Williams was scoring them. That said, the initial few were clumsy and poorly paced IMO.

I think he's gotten "convince" and "bully" mixed up. EDit- nice Clemenssen quote. WTF would he know about composing anyhow much less whether it was "lazy" or not?

Score 1 for Joel. Nice volley!

Er, there are more than a few guys working outside LA who are big time composers. Desplat, Yared, Chris Gordon, Mychael Danna, Howard Shore (New York), Elliot Goldenthal (also New York), and the list goes on. In this day and age with the wonder of technology, you don't actually have to live in L.A. to score a film in L.A. luckily. Great post. My thoughts exactly.

Test Flight doesn't bother me that much although it does almost seem like a song rather than a cue. The part where Hiccup free-falls (and amazing sequence) is a little bit of a problem with me because Powell sticks with the same tempo (which is actually kind of moderate) whereas someone like Goldenthal or Giacchino would most probably have changed the tempo to a faster pace during this harrowing sequence. By keeping the music static in terms of its pace, it doesn't help to underline the danger of the moment. I'm sure Goldenthal would have done an aleatoric thing with the brass at that moment too but cannot be totally sure. I don't think you have to Mickey-Mouse every scene but some contrast at the moment would have been good. Once Hiccup regains control, it would have been fine to resume the moderate tempo. I think tracks like Forbidden Friendship have that metronomic feel because of the steady repeating rhythmic figures in the drums/percussion. I know that scene is almost a montage because time elapses during the course of it and having a unifying musical element helps to create some thematic cohesion, but once again, a little reprieve would have made the track breath a big more. But these are actually minor niggles. I really like both tracks musically very much. They are my two favorite tracks from the score. Probably why I can elaborate on them because I've played 'em a hundred times! You do have to realize that as a composer, sometimes my own personal bias or preference comes into play. I see a scene and hear how I would score it which doesn't mean that is the best way to do it. The director probably wanted exactly what Powell gave them and he delivered bigtime for the most part.

I very rarely buy actual CDs any more. Most are in the form of iTunes because it's less of an investment and I'm running out of room. Only re-issues or limited release CDs will I order or some like this HP by Desplat or John Powell's HTTYD where I want to enjoy the richness of the sound in CD format.

Yeah, but listening to it and deciding it's not worth it is fair game, too. Yes I totally see your point. I'm a huge Desplat fan so even if I only heard the examples, I would have taken the chance on the pre-orders. He has yet to disappoint IMO. But that doesn't necessarily apply to everyone who DL this version. I know some of us got all high and mighty on another forum where they ripped and shared Lukas' Ron Jones ST pet project and we tore them a new one and now we're doing the same very thing. I think I'll stand in the hypocrite's corner until my CD copy arrives.

Good point. I actually pre-ordered both CD and iTunes (for the extra tracks). I have no problem deleting this 128kbps version the moment I can get my grubby paws on the real thing- twice.

Fair enough but by saying "I know more than you think" aren't you guilty of the very same thing you charge filmcomposer518 with? After all, you're qualifying your point to some extent eh? I don't know who he/she is either but I imagine they have good reason to remain anonymous. Some professionals like Chris Tilton and Bill Stromberg post on these forums and don't hide behind a pseudonym (nor do I but I'm not a career film composer in Hollywood so I have nothing to hide anyhow) but everyone has their own circumstances and comfort levels so I believe in live and let live. It's just a pity that there's the omnipresence of such cynicism. But it's probably not just relegated to film score forums. I think it's a natural side effect of the internet in general. And yes, some people do lie and prop themselves up to be more than they are while most often the skilled masters underplay their abilities and are as humble as can be. Probably because they have assessed so much knowledge and experience they don't have anything to prove. Anyhow, to get back on track here, I really appreciate all of the various posts from those who like this score. I like the musical examples provided and the points put forth in a thoughtful manner as to why there are merits to Desplat's latest work. It's been a good thread by and large.

Yes, I do believe you are quite right. It's just asking for abuse.

I think Powell would have been an interesting choice for HP. I certainly think he's got the chops for it. I will say the only detractor for me in his style is his constant reliance on a steady percussion or drum beat on his more propulsive tracks. I do wish, like Desplat and Williams, he would relinquish this reliance and use rhythmic ostinatos more to carry the driving component of his music. His quieter sections from HTTYD clearly indicate that he can write flowing, dynamic music without that "metronome feel", something that is often endemic with current composers working in the system these days. I'm not saying he should abandon it altogether because I do think his rhythmic sensibilities are part of his style. I just wish he could mix things up once in a while. Still a big fan though.

I totally agree. And Roald, if you knew about film scoring from the actual execution side of things, you would know that composer518 is not someone "living out his fantasies" and is who he says he is. There are a lot of composers working steadily out there that might not be on the same level as a John Williams or Hans Zimmer but their work is no less viable and functional. to dismiss what composer518 claims, with his lengthy exposition about things specific to the industry, without knowing all the facts shows how close-minded you are. As I said before, it's no wonder why most film composers stay way the hell away from forums like this. Some people can be quite ruthless here.

I have to say, I love How to Train Your Dragon. There is so much subtlety and development of the major themes and motives in this score. I would be quite happy if Powell or Desplat picked up an Oscar for their work this year because they are both excellent composers. HTTYD is the best score I have heard from Powell. And he's produced a lot of winners IMO.

Yes indeed. For fun, we should post examples when we find these Williamsisms if for anything to underscore (pun intended) how much of Williams is actually in Desplat's score.

The other thing I noticed is how many harmonic suspensions in the brass Desplat injects. And his use of ornamentation. These are John Williams staples that can be found in Hook, his seminal 70s works, pretty much over his entire career. Sorry, I'm starting to get frustrated here. It's one thing to simply not like what you hear in this score. fine and dandy. But when some people launch into this nonsensical rhetoric to validate their stance when they have little musical foundation to support themselves, it just annoys me. A lot. So should composers dumb down their approach so that we only cater to audience members? Yes, because most audiences have been weened on a steady diet of simple bombast from our friends at MV-RC.

To add one more thing to those naysayers- please give this a listen when it's actually released. Listen to it more than once. Go into it with an open mind, not a cynical one. Desplat has nothing but respect for Williams and he's mentioned this in many many interviews. After hearing this score a few times, it's more than evident he wished to respect Williams but also respect himself by doing his best within his own style too. I wouldn't want Desplat doing watered down Williams. I LOVE how Desplat managed to marry his compositional sensibilities with Williams'. I also think it's admirable that he has captured that English essence in his music. I can totally hear strains of Elgar and Vaughan Williams here and there. The other thing is that Desplat took some coloristic compositional devices from Williams' toolkit- things that don't seem obvious but are very much omnipresent- such as the brass staccatos accented a line, or the contrast from busy active sections to lighter smaller ones with different groupings of instrumentation. As I said before, these are observations I've made just listening to it driving around. I'll have a proper listen when the CD arrives and will break it down in much greater detail. I don't expect everyone will love this score though. Desplat definitely has a refined style and I'm bloody glad he didn't chuck it because of the pressure of Potter fandom. that's not arrogance- that's integrity.

I totally agree.

I hate to say this guys but I would pretty much say that any major film composer is listening to the mandate of his employers (director, producers) and gives little to no thought about what the fans would like. It's not mean spirited mind you. It's just that there are so many other complexities in scoring a film that the composer rarely has the opportunity or time to think what the fans might want. Williams wrote concert versions of his scores because they guy is a compulsive composer- he cannot stop writing music. It's not that he thought "oh, I'll give the fans this suite". I mean, I cannot be totally sure what runs through his head but I do know that a lot is involved in the compositional process and most composers are just trying to satiate the director's requests while also imbuing the music with its own quality. If people enjoy it after the fact, it's more of a bonus than anything else.

I'm so tempted to order the expanded set but I just cannot justify that $$$. I might bite for the iTunes expanded version though. I do wish they would do 320kbps encoding for orchestral scores though. Even 256kbps seems a tad flat to my ears compared to the CD version. I had to buy Powell's HTTYD because I felt I was missing something on the iTunes version. HP by Desplat is fast becoming my favorite score of the year. There's just so many interesting moments I have to keep going back to. The CD is going to kick butt!

Sometimes it's hard to discern sarcasm from the real thing on the internet :spiny:

And you guys wonder why more film composers don't chime in on these forums? Some of you guys are really nasty. And you need to get your frustration/aggression out in a more constructive manner. Might I suggest martial arts? I have been listening to Desplat's score over and over and I think there are plenty of Williamsisms- the high woodwind writing doubled in octaves is a Williams staple, especially with those chromatic licks/flourishes. The brass voicings in the orchestration on the action cues totally evokes Williams to me. And I hear quotes from Williams' Potter all over the place although perhaps it's more subtle for some listeners to pick up on. In the first 4 cues alone I hear the beginning of Hedwig's Theme and Harry's theme, and I'm not even looking out for them. I've mostly listened to this score while on the road during the day so it's not as if I'm pouring over it with a fine tooth comb. Good post Charlie and nice observations. I'm all good with people who don't care for Desplat's style- I value Mark Olivarez's opinion on scores as well as Erik Woods but we differ in opinion on Desplat. What I don't think is called for is the kind of vitriol that we've seen on this thread and the one on FSM where people are almost wishing eternal damnation on a composer just because he didn't do a cookie cutter cut-and-paste score based on Williams' original. It's not arrogance to want to try to provide a film that has moved well past the tone of the original with complimentary music. I find more than a few tracks "magical" sounding with Impressionist chords (whole tone scales altered) and fluid orchestration. I think Desplat has really stretched past his comfort zone and given us something to listen to over and over again. But that's just me. And clearly Charlie too. But I must side with Brigdens because that's also my family lineage so there you go. :spiny: