David Coscina

The description is on the link. I didn't really want to go for a Williams sound but upon retrospect, it sounds a little like some of the string writing in Jaws. http://soundcloud.com/dcoscina/1-hour-action-cue-2 Fun!

Wow, is the movie rated R then? <_<

That's pretty much why this thread has gone on so long. Some people just cannot differentiate personal preference with lesser skills on the part of the composer. Most of the group who are not nuts about Desplat's score pretty much acknowledge it's their own personal preference why the score doesn't work for them. There are just a couple members who think it's their mission to convert those of us who do enjoy the score over since we cannot be of sound mind and body to enjoy this score. That to me is selling us and Desplat short. I think he did a marvelous job. I cannot remember the last score (aside from Powell's HTTYD) that got as much spin time on my CD player. I love all the layers of the music. And I do honestly feel a little badly for the people who don't enjoy it, some of whom I call friends on this forum. It think it's a treasure but then again, I don't get the Giacchino craze so it's all a matter of perspective.

Well, SF1, I do appreciate your last post. You've done a better job at identifying the elements you find wanting from Desplat's effort. However, as I have listened to this score every day this week, I must disagree with your charge that there is a lack of thematic continuity and development. The theme introduced on "Obliviate" is recapped later in the latter half of Dobby with a different resolution. And the more emotive parts in this track are varied to great effect on Ron Leaves both in that opening motif (the 4 note figure that goes from I-II-II-iii on the scale). This is fully fleshed out into its own sounds and theme. The writing on this track also is very much Williams in how Desplat shapes his string lines. The stately theme introduced on Polyjuice Potion is remarkably recapped as the main heroic figure on Sky Battle except instead of it going from Dmaj to Cmaj (I-VII chord) it's in the key of Cmin and moves from Cmin to Abminor (i-flat vi chord) but the intervals in the theme stay the same. Meaning they move from the dominant (V) up an octave to the minor 3rd to the root, and finally up a major 6thI also noticed Desplat is using a semi-tone relation within the inner voicing of the brass much like Williams has done with his brass writing over the years to blur the harmony somewhat. The B and C notes within the Ab minor chord create a lot of tension and almost dread. Desplat/Pope obviously use some busier counterlines with the violins playing a repeated arpeggiated figure tremolo in the Sky Battle version to add excitement and urgency as well as an answer in the trumpets which is an ascending arpeggiation of the same Cmin chord. If I had time, I'd do a proper Doug Adams' styled piano reduction on an audio track to show how Desplat does provide quite a bit of thematic development throughout the score but I'm scoring a film myself and I think I've used this thread to procrastinate long enough. See my music post below. I never call anything a masterpiece right out of the gates. Time will reveal whether any music has enduring qualities or not. I still love Benjamin Button and it's as fresh today as it was 2 years ago. I don't play, for example, KotCS anywhere as often. I find it plastic and one dimensional. So for me, BB is far more effective. That's not to say WIlliams is suddenly a hack. The guy is a monster and always will be. Does Desplat write at the same complex level as Williams? Ahem, HELL NO! But guys, I would submit that probably barely anyone has in the history of film scoring. Herrmann didn't and I love him. Korngold did but I don't like his music as much as Williams. Goldsmith, whose music I adore also didn't. If complexity defines enduring or good, we'd have to chuck a lot of composers from our fave lists. Not all of Williams' works are classics in the sense that is Star Wars or Raiders or ET is. But I think some of his most moving music has been simpler. Omaha Beach from SPV is one of my favourite "new" Williams era pieces. If you think about it, Home Alone is built largely on major third intervals, which he also exploited (much better IMO) for the Hook music. Desplat is not a simple composer by any stretch though. He writes melodies and counterlines while adhering to the principles of formal counterpoint, something I really have a hard time hearing in much of Hollywood composers' output these days. There is a difference between "layering" sounds on top of one another and true contrapuntal writing. To my ears, the latter sounds better, smoother, more effective. Geez, I keep getting sucked into this thread....DANG IT!!

I like New Moon as well. Dreamcatcher is a beautiful theme.

Mark, if you don't honestly believe that baiting people into substantiating their enjoyment of a non-Williams score is undesirable, I cannot help you out. If you extract all of the personal reflections about why the score is enjoyable to some throughout this thread, you would actually have a pretty good analysis made by several people. Once again, you're creating a straw-man argument or perhaps a non-sequitur. no one is telling you that you cannot express your disappointment. No one told SF1 he couldn't voice his opinion. It's the manner in which you guys have that has in turn created heated opposition. At some point, one of you guys accused us with being "fanboys", or plain "wrong" about enjoying this score. How in the hell can our own personal preference be WRONG? That is what gets me, Koray, Blumenkohl, Miss Padme ticked off. Not your own opinion but the stances that we're somehow deluded. I'm sure you wouldn't like it if the tables were reversed. I'm sure someone will create a Desplat forum/website and I will happily move over there to discuss this score and will limit discussion on this forum to John Williams. EDIT- Look over every post I have made about HP and you will not find anything bad about Hooper. Why? Because I never saw those films nor bought the scores, so I don't have an opinion to share.

Perfect! And I would never invalidate your view. In fact, for those not enamoured with Desplat, I do like to hear their views if they are incisive or thoughtful- meaning they don't just say "it sucks". So nemesis here has qualified his personal view with the adjective "cold". Fair enough. Obviously there's something in Desplat's chord choice, melodic choice and/or orchestration that doesn't get those good 'ol shivers-down-the-spine response going. No problem. It is so interesting that the first time I heard Obliviate, when it builds to that big modulation and the strings imitate the horn line, it totally sent shivers down my spine. I don't often get that response much out of film music any more and I used to all the time with Williams or Goldsmith or Horner. Their music was able to push those buttons. Giacchino's "Parting Sorrows" also hits me that way. In my books, that's the best thing music can do- move someone so emotionally that it becomes a physiological response.

Which is totally fine- it's your opinion and this is, after all, a place where different opinions are voiced, and sometimes collide with one another. We both like Yared's music so while I don't see eye to eye with you on this score, I do on others. Actually why don't you explain to me why Sky Battle is better than Jango's Escape? Since it's hard to fault Williams writing on a technical basis , I can't wait for your explanation Uh I never said Jango's Escape was worse than Sky Battle. Please don't create straw-man arguments Mark. And I don't particularly feel obligated to explain why I LIKE Desplat's HP7 any more than I have during this long and tiring thread. As far as I know, I never ever said Desplat was a better or more competent composer than Williams. I did say and still maintain that his respect for Williams is clearly abundant throughout HP7 in how he approaches different aspects of Williams' seminal compositional qualities. There's the non-metered writing in the music, the suspension chords especially in the brass, the use of rhythmic ostinatos in the melodic instruments, the use of contrasting textures in the orchestration, more than a few quotes in various guises of Williams' motives and themes from his HP work, etc etc. I guess I'm starting to get a little a little annoyed with the idea that I have to substantiate my personal enjoyment of this score with detailed music prose lest I be charged with the blinded fanboy tag. I'm probably more annoyed at the fact that I see these types of posts as trolling- the intention to illicit a desired response, usually of frustration or anger. Mark, as I mentioned, I've definitely agreed with you on some listening preferences, but if you keep needling myself or anyone else here about WHY they like this score, I see some rather heated responses coming your way. This is about as composed a response as I can make. If I was not a masochist, I would just leave this thread once and for all but then again, I have really enjoyed reading the observations of fellow HP7 enthusiasts.

Which is totally fine- it's your opinion and this is, after all, a place where different opinions are voiced, and sometimes collide with one another. We both like Yared's music so while I don't see eye to eye with you on this score, I do on others. steb, I do agree. We are a passionate bunch which is better than being apathetic. Sometimes it spills over to heated debates. I guess we could all work on tolerance for other people's opinions, although I will submit that if people better articulated their positions, less turmoil could result from it. Just my 2 cents.

I agree with Miss Padme on this. The fact is, we don't know all of the discussions and work process of the filmmakers and how they ended up with what they did. Obviously no filmmaker or artist goes into any venture thinking "I'm going to mess this up". SF1, my continual problem with your posts is that, much as you vehemently deny it, your position is motivated by personal bias. Even when you're supposedly speaking "objectively", you're using adjectives that are based on subjective opinion assertions like "forgettable themes" or something to that effect ARE personal reactions- they aren't objective. Objective would be "Desplat uses an alternating string ostinato of a minor 3rd to major second as a basis to begin Obliviate. He then introduces the theme which modulates to a new key with the horns playing a suspended 4th chord as a means of changing the key center of the piece providing contrast to the previous sectional build. This is musical observations. It's as objective as saying 2+2=4.

I don't think Desplat's themes are "instantly memorable" but he does work them into almost all of the tracks in various obvious and not-so obvious guises that lends a sense of cohesion to his score. There are a couple tracks that seem more underscorish but most of them I find compelling melodically, harmonically or texturally in some way shape or form. I did find the last track a little bit anti-climactic though...very much "To be Continued..." sounding.

1. Prokofiev 2. Bartok 3. Herrmann 4. Williams 5. Goldsmith 6. Mahler 7. Vaughan Williams 8. Charlie Parker 9. Shostakovich 10. John Adams

The other element of Desplat's style I really enjoy is his use of thematic & motivic imitation between instruments. Even if it's just an interval it helps to bind them usic together by giving that sense of structure. He also recaps his theme on Obliviate in later cues like "Polyjuice Potion". I'm also impressed with the adherence to Williams' style of non-metered writing. Meaning, Desplat's usual style has a very strong sense of time signature, whereas Williams varies his meter and tempi so much that it's often very "free" sounding and not metronomic in its feel. This is another area where I see Desplat respecting Williams by employing these non-metered feeling sections and tempo changes. I also hear much more ornamentation in the lines with more trills and mordants than is usual; in his music. I'm not bringing this up as an attempt to convince those who don't like it- I think it's really cool to identify some of the aspects that I find particularly compelling and fun when listening to this score. It's probably tied with Powell's How to Train Your Dragon as my fave score of the year.

Very well articulated richuk. You said exactly what I've been trying to say. And I'll add that to some of us, we don't see HP7 by Desplat as a "blown opportunity"- this is a perception by some with a different lexicon than others. And sf1, I don't mind different viewpoints at all. Mark Olivarez doesn't share the same enthusiasm for Desplat and we get along fine because neither one of us tries to convince the other by invalidating their personal preferences when it comes to music. I have also gained a lot of respect for Blunenkohl and Koray on this thread. Anyhow I'm resigned to the fact that we just don't see eye to eye on this particular score or composer.

Sf1, honestly how dare you charge Bluenenkohl with statements like his his viewpoint is "untrue". He can observe anything he darn well wants. Based on his posts on thus forum he's not an unintelligent inarticulate boob, as much as you want to suggest insomany words . I honestly wish there is an "ignore" feature on this forum because Im honestly getting tired of your vacuous overly biased rhetoric.

Nope. It's obvious by now that to support ones position one must knock down someone else. Classic Internet forum culture, or worse, human nature. I'm guilty of it myself. I like Desplat's score a lot. I love his treatment of Hedwig's theme on the solo French horn with those string whole tone suspensions supporting it. Classic Williams IMO. Can't remember what track that is because, to me, the score plays as a whole piece of music.

I don't think Williams is purely drawing from the Russians for his action music and I love cues like Sonic Greeting from Superman or Truck Chase from Raiders. I think the compositional approach of Williams and Goldsmith differs and that's why we hear differences in their sound. Williams thinks much more vertically in terms of harmony probably thanks to his jazz background where that is emphasized. Goldsmith by his own admission thought more linearly and that allowed him to write streamlined yet rhythmically complex music where the phrasing emphasized the time signatures. In a lot of Williams' work I'm not even cognizant of meter because of his skill at melodic/harmonic motion compounded with his complex counterpoint. The two areas I always found Goldsmith to he more adept at were modern writing (atonalism, dissonance) and his sense of driving rhythmic figures in his music. To me, I'm glad both were around because I liked the contrast in their styles.

Some critics would argue that music that pushes too many buttons is manipulative contrived fabrication. The tone of movie's has moved away from the spectacular and as such requires a different type of underscore. I think Korngold could not exist in today's climate. I think Herrmann could because he was able to fit music to imagery and still have something musically satisfying. I honestly see Desplat like Herrmann, not in his sound so much as his application of music to picture.

You do have a point. But comparing Zimmer to Tchaikovsky and Beethoven is even more insulting! :cool:

Just to clarify that Zimmer's power anthems are loud, not ballsy. I would love someone to point me to any example throughout Zimmer's entire career where he matches the intensity and kinetic rawness of the following Goldsmith awesomeness: "opening credits" Finale Conflict- basically the finest culmination of ideas from the entire series. The opening horn statement is so ominous and bold it makes mere mortals shiver in their boots "New Friend" from Papillon- the use of dissonance in the trumpets (semi tone clusters and fluttertongue at the same time) not only sets off this cue on an astringent, gutsy course but amplifies the urgency of the scene. Note that some of the motivic and passages in this cue also appear earlier in the score where Goldsmith underscores the grizzly execution of a young inmate with the same two-tiered effect. any part of Alien- sorry, Zimmer and shit, most current film composers for that matter, will never write like this, nor do I believe they have the skill to do so. Snobby of me? Hell yes. Correct? Probably (although I will submit that Giacchino's Let Me in has some pretty damn close moments) The Edge- any cue with Bart the Bear in it- this was during Goldsmith's more streamlined era but he still managed to get a lot of mileage out of those downward glides from the trombone section along with some terrific writing for auxiliary percussion Total Recall- sorry but nowhere near a Hart to Hart score and the mere suggestion of this worries me about the listening tastes of some on this forum. :cool: Planet of the Apes- there's some meaty writing in this and Elfman, who I do admire, never even got close to this brilliance. Not even. Wind and the Lion- Another colossal theme from a colossal score. Alternating 5ths in the horns is pure power. It also serves to introduce a seed of the main theme by extrapolating the first and strongest interval within the theme Okay, this could go on ad infinitum

Well, I'm a very strong advocate of this score. I think Goldsmith got close to this approach on The Edge as well. Perhaps not as complex for the action cues but certainly in the manner of bringing different influences together to form a cogent musical statement. My apologies. I have removed that blurb.

Yeah I should actually qualify that better. I guess my sense of Prokofiev, whose music I adore, see my avatar, was always very refined, even when he was delving into more aggressive music. Witness "The Fight" from Romeo & Juliet (some of you will know it by a different name- "Stealing the Enterprise" ). It's energetic, the B section has that wonderful portentous brass statement, but it's all very precise. Stravinsky's insistence of changing meters every 2 bars and his orchestration seemed to convey a sense of the "ugly" that Prokofiev never approached, even when he was trying, ie Third Symphony. I also would say that savagery from Goldsmith was more akin to Bartok's influence than Stravinsky. Alien has some flat out vicious moments that one can reference right to Miraculous Mandarin, although most would say that was the most "Stravinskyesque" that Bartok ever got.

Stefancos is gonna love this one. To me, there are many many compelling reasons why I find First Blood by Jerry Goldsmith to be as good as the best of anything Williams has ever written. In some ways, I prefer it to almost any action writing from Williams' canon (make no mistake though- Williams is my favorite film composer of all time!). I think the quality I find so omnipresent in Goldsmith's action writing that is slightly elusive in Williams' is that raw, almost savage tenor. Williams' action scores can be muscular but there's always a sense of refinement to them and perhaps a little dressiness. I think part of this relates to the personality of a composer. Williams is a very quiet natured, even tempered individual based on all the interviews I've seen and having met him once in Pittsburgh. Goldsmith had an irascible, even mean temperament at times and I think it shows in his music. Also, his influences were more heavily centered in modernism which eschewed prettiness for orchestral violence on more than one occasion (Varese's Arcana is possibly one of the most violent pieces you can hear- or Bartok's Miraculous Mandarin). So, anyway, back to First Blood. The quality I find so enduring about this score in particular is its breadth of styles that Goldsmith infused but never once stray from the over-all tone of the music. It's all part of a piece rather than incidental vignettes. The mournful plaintive trumpet melody, the driving 5/4 string ostinatos, thunderous percussion accents (most modern composers would do well to study this score to properly learn how to use percussion in their music!!!), eerie atonal sections for the forest attack, and straight out dissonance for the violence that ensues. I could write volumes about why this score is probably the epitome of what made Goldsmith such a great composer. I actually don't want to lift Goldsmith up at the expense of Williams' music because it's not really about that- I just used that in my subject heading as a means of being provocative. I value each composer for their own gifts which were different. I don't like Goldsmith's Supergirl score as I find it pales to Superman. But I don't think Williams could have scored Planet of the Apes, Papillon, Alien, ST:TMP, or First Blood in the same deft manner Goldsmith did. It's like comparing Prokofiev to Stravinsky. One had a sublime way of putting music together and the other one excelled at rhythmic intensity, innovative orchestration and raw primal savagery. BTW- I prefer Prokofiev to Stravinsky. Although I would say Goldsmith was probably more influenced by Bartok if you look at his whole career. Harmonically at least.

When I come back from most films these days, I wish I could forget the music. A lot of it is utter rubbish and migraine inducing....

Oh the slow mvmt from his 6th brings me to tears. He was said to have written that with his eldest daughter (who perished as a child) in mind. Also Prokofiev is my all time fave composer. The feeling in the 2nd mvmt from his 4th symphony is as moving as anything I've heard. People bash Horner up and down for borrowing from Sergei but Williams has done his fair share of pilfering too over the years.