Desplat13

Maybe. I know Stravinsky said "A good composer does not imitate; he steals." I don't know if it was said before him or not. He actually has quote a few good ones. Like "Harpists spend 90 percent of their lives tuning their harps and 10 percent playing out of tune." Colin Thomson

It could be that we all just don't like black gospel music. Or it could be that that genre of music in general is not on the same level musically with some others. It could be that it is boring and repetative. Perhaps it is a good example of that sort of music, probably done better than most. But still not good. Colin Thomson

Hercules is the Menken movie I will never try to defend. I just don't quite understand how something like that happened. Very sad. Colin Thomson

The theme heard at the beginning of "Prologue" (called oddly enough the Prologue theme). It's structurally very, very similar to "Across the Stars". Oh, right. With the triplets, and then sequencing them lower, and really most of the melodic intervals in the beginning melody. Interesting. I don't think I would have caught that. Nice find. Colin Thomson

Don't you mean Tchaikovsky? "Somewhere in My Memory" and the Neverland theme both have a relationship akin to "Marion's Theme"/"Han Solo and the Princess." There's a phrase from the opening of "Prologue" (what theme is that?) that is used in "Hedwig's Theme" and another from the same Hook theme that appears in "Across the Stars." None of this detracts from my enjoyment of any of the mentioned pieces. Where is the Hook theme that appears in Across the Stars? Colin Thomson

You're worried that one of the biggest hits of all time, which also is one of the mostly critically well-regarded films of the entire decade in which it was released, will detract from your enjoyment of the music? Out of curioisty, what other classics are you purposefully not watching for fear that the movie will ruin the music for you? It is not so much that I am avoiding E. T. I just have no interest in it. I am sure it is a wonderful movie, but, sorry, not interested That said, I am sure I will watch it someday. As far as classics I am avoiding, I don't know any classics would fit into that category. And really, if it were on somewhere I was, I would probably watch it. It is just that I don't feel too much of a desire to. I like to watch musicals that focus around music, because I think that in that case the movie adds to the music. But often normal movies don't. So, here is my list of soundtracks I have without having seen the movie, and without having too much desire to see the movie. E. T. Hook The Spiderwick Chronicles The Water Horse Shindler's List Titanic Well, I think I watched part of Hook once, but I don't really remember much. And out of all of them, that is probably the one I would like most to see. There you have it. I am afraid I am just not too much of a movie fan. Colin Thomson

I think that is smart. I don't know if that movie will be worth anything, but I do agree that they should leave CG to Pixar. Colin Thomson

I was just using the Yoda theme in E. T. as an example of a composer quoting himself, and it working well. I was making the point that it is not always a bad thing, and perhaps Horner should not be judged so harshly for it, just because it is less obvious when he does it. I registered on a John Williams fan forum because I am a John Williams fan. If I were a Spielberg fan I would have registered on one of his. There are many movies I don't really want to see because I like there music so much, I am afraid it would take away from the music. Colin Thomson

It saw Mulan once a few years ago, but I don't really remember any of it.

OK, that's cool. I just can't help but go to extreme measures when defending Menken. You go right ahead and keep on enjoying Mulan. Very nice score, that. Colin Thomson

I can't really judge those soundtracks, because I don't have them. I do think I liked some of the things from A Bug's Life. Mostly it is Randy Newman's Monsters Inc. and Cars that I didn't like of his. Although I have to admit I did enjoy Monsters Inc's Wouldn't Have Nothin' song, especially with John Goodman and Billy Crystal singing it. It just seems Randy Newman's sound has begun to wear out with some of his recent Pixar movies. Colin Thomson

Finding Nemo

I consider Ratatuille to be cartoon-ish. But never mind. I know you would never say the Mulan's music was generic, but what you did say was "Mulan sounds like a very good music and whatever genre it was composed for shouldn't matter". I know you didn't mean generic, because that is a soap word. It just sounded that way to me. But I think both of you are dismissing for too quickly the power in 'children's' (for lack of a better term) music. I understand totally what you are saying about The Little Mermaid. But I have not been defending that one, as I think it is one of Menken's weaker efforts and far below Beauty and the Beast. I just don't quite understand how the phrase "My point was composing good film music to fit what is onscreen and it shouldn't matter whether you are scoring a comedy, a cartoon, a drama or a Sci-Fi film" could be considered anything but generic. Does this mean that there is no need for style? All the types of film you are refering to require dramatically different styles of music, and one would not usually fit the other. OK, maybe I see where you are coming from, in that animated music doesn't need to sound animated to work. I just love the fantasy sound. But what I want you to understand is that the Menken style is just as valid as the Goldsmith style. They are different, and both well done. Mulan, however, sounds to my ears as a normal smattering of oriental, child-ish, and intense music. It is an entertaining listen, for sure. But it lacks the spark that one can find in Beauty and the Beast. In Menken's scoring we find really what I consider to be the origination of the Disney 'magic', if you will. Perhaps the only incarnation of that magic that ever came out of the Disney studios. Certianly you will enjoy Mulan's music more than Beauty and the Beast's if you don't appreciate good fantasy music. I would say Mulan is an absolutely fine example of a type of writing which was there long before Mulan. But Beauty and the Beast began a whole new phase in the fantasy genre, and Menken is still being copied for what he wrote then. And yes, I am talking about the score. The fact is, it makes people believe in a utopian-type fantasy world, and it works undeniably well. But you would of course say that you have no interest in utopian music, as it lacks conflict, thus lacking any depth, in which case you would be very correct. This is why Menken's danger music is so effective. It puts in danger the perfectness of what he has created, thus causing the listener to feel the anxiety of the characters in the movie. Sure, I can listen to the Huns attacking music, and say 'good job, Goldsmith'. But I can listen to 'Battle on the Tower' and feel the emotion of the characters. Which brings me to another point. "The same can be said for the scene at the end of Beauty And The Beast, a very dramatic scene that has weak music.". The music is the ONLY reason that this scene is dramatic. Otherwise it would be your normal everyday fight with the bad guy, think you beat the bad guy, happy to have won, stabbed in the back, all hope is lost, bad guy falls hundreds of feet to his death scene. The music first brings excitement to the fighting in some fine intense and emotional scoring, but then comes back to the beginning theme which represents the spell on the Beast and that time is running short to break it. This is played as the Beast begins to climb to Belle, thinking Gaston is gone. From there the music changes to what is used as a sort of a love theme for the Beast and Belle, and builds to an amazing climax of wonderfulness just in time to be hurled back into the dissonence and harshness of Menken's brass scoring as Gaston stabs the Beast in the back. The percussion comes back in for a few measures, driving home the point just before Gaston is hurled from the Beast's back to the depths below, with the appropriate music to go with his fall. How in the world could you listen to this masterpiece and call it 'weak' music? In the interest of fairness, I have been giving Mulan a good listen. I think you should consider spending 3:05 minutes of your time listening to the end of Battle on the Tower, from 2:23 to the end. Listen to it with the realization that this is unashamadly fantasy writing, and must be judged as such. Enjoy! Colin Thomson Nice clip. I would love for Menken to have a chance to do some scoring outside of the little niche to which he has been confined. Sounds like he would too. We can always hope. Colin Thomson

Um, ok, whatever you say I'll let it get back on topic. Colin Thomson

I know it was done on purpose, and I love it. I am just saying that it has its place. Colin Thomson, who has never seen E. T.

So, should I bring up the Yoda theme in E. T.? It never really bothers me to have composers quoting themselves. Horner might do it a bit too much, but I think it has its place. Colin Thomson

Is that the motif you also hear in the "Re-Entry and Splashdown" cue in Apollo 13 (around 2:52-3:02)? Come to think of it, that's also in Enemy at the Gates as well, isn't it? ASW I really don't know. To tell you the truth, I think I only have two Horner scores, Titanic and Spiderwick. Colin Thomson

I want reasons. I have given you plenty of reasons why Menken's scoring is superior. I am not talking about the songs at all. Obviously, we cannot compare them. I am talking about the scoring. Tell me WHY Goldsmith is better (or why Menken's scoring is junk). I found Mulan to be much less original than Beauty and the Beast. I know you all think it is a recycled sound, but it is Menken's sound, no matter how many people copy it, and it is a brilliant sound (when coming from its master). Mulan did in no way originate any of its style. Beauty and the Beast really started something. I know The Little Mermaid came first, but that was a little more experimental, and Beauty and the Beast was the result of that experimenting. And I am talking about the scoring. Colin Thomson

Probably my two favorite scores in the world are: Beauty and the Beast, and The Empire Strikes Back. But neither would work at all for the other. To say 'whatever genre it is composed for shouldn't matter' is to give up on anything but generic music (good or bad, still generic). It is a fact that we associate different things with different types of music. So if you mean that the Mulan music would work better stuck into any random film, you are probably right. That is called generic, and that is one of the worst enemies of good music. I can understand if you would like a more adult-like approach to a children's movie. Well, no, I can't. I am sure Goldsmith wrote great music for many types of films. Menken, however, is the master of the animated musical. Colin Thomson, who never thought Lion King was all that amazing

I know you are talking score. So am I. Yes, I got the original release. The promo seems pretty hard to get a hold of. Is the extra 35 minutes of score a lot better than what was released on the original? I know often OSTs do not do full justice to a score. Would the extra music refute my points? I can understand how a bigger picture of the music leads to a much more powerful whole, and makes more sense than bits and pieces spliced together. But most of what I said had to do with style, which, I assume, still holds true. Correct me if I am wrong. Colin Thomson

In Titanic on the 'Death of the Titanic' track from 6:15-6:23 I believe he quotes himself from Balto, when Balto looks up and sees the ghost/white wolf/inspiration/whatever it is. I don't have the soundtrack, so I can't give an exact time. Not that self-plagiarism is a bad thing... Colin Thomson

Really? Oh, I see, Matthew Wilder. OK, well, if we are comparing Mulan and Beauty and the Beast, the song argument still stands. If we are comparing Menken and Goldsmith, we have no songs to compare. Which would make which of the two more versatile? Working with a lyricist is not something anybody can do. Not saying Goldsmith can't. It just seems he didn't for this genre. But thanks for pointing that out. Colin Thomson

Well, that's like saying: Raiders of the Lost Ark is a good score, but get rid of the adventurous music, and it is nowhere near the quality of The Mummy. Very good point, even though I think Menken has written some of the greatest film scores around. OK, first impressions of Mulan: Most certainly lacking when it comes to the songs. I am afraid that there is no real comparison between Menken and Goldsmith here, and I have to assume most would agree. A couple nice moments, perhaps, but nothing on the scale of Beauty and the Beast. But usually the Mulan defenders point to the score, and say Goldsmith can write instrumentals better than Menken. Fair enough, we'll discuss it on your terms. So, why is Mulan's score considered better by some? More 'epic' has been the argument I have heard, and I already said why I don't think that means 'better'. Still, the writing in Mulan is top notch. Some nice themes, very nice oriental textures, and good percussion work. All of these things are well done. I watched the movie once quite a few years ago, and don't hardly remember any of it. But the score in and of itself does not say 'animated', or, if you like, 'child-like'. Many may say that this is a good thing, and that they have heard enough child-like music, and want something with substance. The fact is that, while child-like has far too often sunk to the 'child-ish' (two distinctly different terms), it doesn't have to, and when done well, the wonder and innocence can lend itself in a powerfully child-like way to the emotional effect (need I cite once more Battle on the Tower?). This is why I think Menken's music works better for its films than Goldsmith's (in the animated genre). Mulan could be a very serious sort of movie in the music's serious moments, and the only moments that really sound child-like come dangerously close to child-ish. So we have two very different types of scoring, and Menken's is the more confluent of the two. Menken uses all of the tools at his disposal to write music that makes you feel like a child experiencing a fantasy. One in which there is fun, danger, and powerful emotion. Goldsmith writes music that starts as fantasy, but, when it becomes dangerous, loses all fantasy elements and becomes your average well written scary dangerous music. Which is good, but Menken's is much better for the subject matter. That is my defense. And, in case you hadn't noticed, I love arguing. So, bring it on. Colin Thomson

The chess game is one of my favorites. Gotta love that smile he gives himself after he switchest the board around without letting himself notice it. Colin Thomson

All right, as I type this I am downloading Mulan from iTunes, 'cause I am a fair guy when it comes to arguing. But if ANYTHING in it beats Battle on the Tower from BATB, well, let's just say I will have to start rethinking my musical priorities. Colin Thomson