Ludwig

Sounds like the conversation could use a Dead Parrot dramatic reconstruction.

Myself, I call something a polychord only when there are literally two chords present. If there's a chord and just a dissonant bass, I call it polytonal (the bass suggesting the other tonality all on its own). It's all the same family of concepts, I just prefer to be very precise in applying terms. One could even call the Eb/Db a V4/2 of IV that resolves in an unorthodox manner, the bass Db not going to C but Ab, probably to harmonize the melody's C with the sweetness of a 3rd rather than a bare octave on C, as would have happened had it resolved normally.

Absolutely! Also excellent is this staggering brass fanfare at 2:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnQCSGsGwr8&feature=player_detailpage#t=156 (how do you get the youtube player in the post?) Who else writes like this? Simply amazing. Anyone ever tried working out the chords from 0:25-44? They're all polytonal chords, with a full triad above and a dissonant single note below. Simply put, the triads above all have roots on "black keys" and the single notes on "white keys". From 0:18, the progression is: C#m/C – Eb/A C#m/C – Eb/A C#m/C – Gb/G Gb/G – Ab/E Gb/G – Ab/E Gb/G – Ab/E Gb/G Ab/A – A/F Ab/A – A/F C#m/C A nice detail is that the C#m/C we started with returns at the climax of the buildup to round off the whole short passage. (One might even say that chord is "prolonged" through the passage.) Just to be clear, I'm talking about the Battle of Yavin cue here rather than the Clash of Lightsabers. Sorry for any confusion.

To have at a glance lists of cues related by mood could be a valuable resource to have in a sub-forum, where they can easily be found. There will always be disagreement, but overall they may well serve as a kind of reference that could be added to and not float away as a kind of flash-in-the-pan JWfad. In fact, these threads sound a lot like old anthologies of music they used to use for accompanying silent movies, probably the best known being Erno Rapee's Motion Picture Moods, which listed some fifty categories of cue types including: - Battle - Chase - Children - Dances - Grotesque - Humorous - Joyfulness - Love-Themes - Misterioso - Monotony - Quietude - Sadness - Sinister As you can see, many of these categories correspond to the "most"-type threads we have here. I suggest we start a sub-forum that incorporates the threads and allows for new ones to be started on other moods, perhaps along the lines suggested here.

Absolutely! Also excellent is this staggering brass fanfare at 2:36 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnQCSGsGwr8&feature=player_detailpage#t=156 (how do you get the youtube player in the post?) Who else writes like this? Simply amazing. Anyone ever tried working out the chords from 0:25-44? They're all polytonal chords, with a full triad above and a dissonant single note below. Simply put, the triads above all have roots on "black keys" and the single notes on "white keys". From 0:18, the progression is: C#m/C – Eb/A C#m/C – Eb/A C#m/C – Gb/G Gb/G – Ab/E Gb/G – Ab/E Gb/G – Ab/E Gb/G Ab/A – A/F Ab/A – A/F C#m/C A nice detail is that the C#m/C we started with returns at the climax of the buildup to round off the whole short passage. (One might even say that chord is "prolonged" through the passage.)

I can actually hear the bassoon doubling the double basses in the shark motif leading up to the first "bite" on Chrissie. And the strings are much clearer, adding a more visceral effect when Chrissie starts to be sloshed around. The only thing is the climax. I prefer the simpler approach of just having the percussion hammer it out. No need for extras there. Still, a superior mix to be sure. Is this all available on YouTube or is it just the one cue?

The contrapuntal brass writing in A New Hope always sounds fresh to me no matter how physically old the score gets. Those passages in The Battle of Yavin are probably the best examples, like at 1:11 below, where we get staggered entries of the brass culminating in wonderfully dissonant major-minor chords when the brass all line up:

Sorry Shark. Been busy and this cue requires some serious attention. First off, things aren't quite what they seem in the cue. After several hearings, I'm sure the top note is C-natural rather than C-flat. But more than that, I think it's more productive to divide this stack of notes into two separate chords. After all, that's how Williams arranges them - the bottom four are in the trombones (very softly and starting on G2), I believe, and the top four of course in the strings, which are much more prominent. So I'd be inclined to analyze each half separately since they are quite differentiated in register, timbre, and dynamic, allowing us to hear them individually, especially since they don't exactly blend harmonically anyway. So then I'd take each half as an atonal set, the bottom one a (0156) and the top a (0145). I'm starting to get the feeling that Williams uses sets that are similar but not always exact (in much the same way he varies repeated ideas in his tonal writing). So (0156) and (0145) are both composed of two semitones, but they differ in how far apart these semitones are. You might call it a "fuzzy" relation, where things are almost the same but one interval is off. There is so much more to this cue, like the many (026)s, spaced as either [0,2,8] or [0,6,8], the gliss chords, and the parallel triads, but that's how I'd take the chord you asked about. As for Treesong, I'd need to know more about its context to make an assessment.

Ah, but Barry has gloriously varied ostinati. I love them. Space March is perhaps my favourite.

Wrong thread. Belongs in Most Haunting Cues. I seriously love the phat bass that kicks in at 0:50. I knew you wouldn't like this. Sure, the bass is cool, but come on... how many times can we hear the same thing over and over again, really? There's more than in this cue. It's called an ostinato, numbnuts. I'm sure it works in the film. Just bores me to hell. I always expect a little variation in my ostinati. GreyPilgrim, look what you've done now. You're just causing strife and discomfort.

Wrong thread. Belongs in Most Haunting Cues. I seriously love the phat bass that kicks in at 0:50. I knew you wouldn't like this. Sure, the bass is cool, but come on... how many times can we hear the same thing over and over again, really? There's more than in this cue.

http://youtu.be/4NQAXri4t7s

Interesting. Do you hear the death/mortality motif in Death's theme?

I've now started my annual analyses of the year's Oscar nominees for Best Original Score. First up is Williams' The Book Thief, a score rich in subtlety: http://www.filmmusicnotes.com/oscar-nominees-2014-best-original-score-part-1-of-6-john-williams-the-book-thief/ Enjoy.

This is sweeping in a more lyrical way, and a real shame it wasn't used in the film (@ 3:03):

Mr. Shark referred drew my attention to the haunting sounds in this cue and they've been faves ever since. The first 15 seconds are especially bone chilling, and the resolution to a minor chord at 0:12 sounds like inevitable doom: http://youtu.be/bbJOiI3vLB4

A very fine analysis. Interesting technique, this kind of "clustural accretion", one might call it, and you've explained it clearly and concisely. If I were to add anything, I might argue more for harmonic functions in the passage. You're right that it is a cluster built up from the A minor (natural) scale. In fact, the way you describe it seems to correspond for the most part with Persichetti's description of "pandiatonic" writing (p. 223): Well, you get the idea. In any case, my feeling is that the melody and bass create harmonic functions that become increasingly blurred by the ever-growing inner-voice cluster. Specifically, I think it's possible to hear the following functions in bars 1-5, especially since the melody and bass outline these chords so nicely: A minor: i - III6 - VI After that, it starts to get rather murky, bar 6 perhaps suggesting minor v, but after that getting even more difficult to tease out any functions (perhaps viio6 - I in C major suggest themselves). By the end of the buildup, I would say it sounds entirely like a cluster with no suggestion of function. So one could say the passage moves from clear functional harmony to non-functional harmony. Just a thought.

Fantastic work! That definitely deserves one of these...

But there is a 4th. It's true, the 4th is buried in the chord above the bass, but it's still there. If you play the chord on piano then play the same chord but move the G down to F#, you'll hear how it can still sound like a sus despite the voicing. Maiden Voyage is one of the examples used in Mark Levine's Jazz Theory for sus chords. His notation's a little looser, showing a C major chord above the D and calling the whole thing Dsus. No added notes in the symbol, but you get the picture.

Or even D13sus4. But it all depends on the context.

Well, sure. But that symbol kind of hides the Eb triad that Williams writes so clearly as a tremolo against the A triad. Also, the lower parts (tuba and trombones) are playing an A7(b5), so again it would be misleading to call it A7 (which has E-natural) with added b9 and #11. Though your suggestion is the more normal way to describe it, I always prefer analyses that explain things as accurately as possible, even if that means inventing some new symbols to do so. I think that Williams and other film composers combine styles in new ways, particularly jazz, pop, and classical, so that analysis from any one angle often seems inadequate. All the more reason for more writings on film music, and particularly that of Williams - the ultimate stylistic fusion.

Yes, they're pretty much the same chord. The one in the first flying scene is essentially A7(b5) acting as V of D, but with the complete A triad added above in tremolos, so you get its E dissonating against the Eb of the b5 in the chord. Maybe a better symbol is something weird like "A+Eb/A", meaning it can be understood as a sort of polychord, though with both chords acting as dominants. The one in The Rescue transposes the chord to act as V of C, and is slightly varied, the bass now being Db with the G7 above, so G7/Db. This one lacks an Ab, so technically, it wouldn't be "G+Db/Db", but you can see it's basically the same chord as the other one. This shows another typical Williams-ism: varying statements of the same material is subtle ways to bring something new to the music with each statement.

I would also point out that the progression of chords Mr. Shark analyzes here move almost continuously by falling 3rds, which, although they create a sense of forward drive, they lack a sense of resolution (i.e., they don't form a cadence, but demand to keep moving forward). Even when this pattern is temporarily broken from the Em7(add#11) to the B7, the progression is down a 4th - emphatically a lack of resolution (has the same sound as a half cadence - an imperfect cadence in British terms). Only when the cue ends do we get a progression down a semitone, which, as Mr. Shark rightfully points out, stands in for the dominant, so is understood as a dominant-tonic progression, or down a 5th, finally giving the music a sense of resolution with the end of the cue. As usual, Williams well matches the musical characteristics of his harmonic progressions (and other features as well) with the agitated feeling of the onscreen chase scene.

The flying theme has what is possibly Williams' best B section. It's the one that leads not only the most seamlessly, but the most tantalizingly into the return of A, its juicy harmonies and its continuously moving string line "wafting" gradually towards us, causing us to musically salivate and whetting our appetite for another massive dose of the famous theme. Sometimes the little links between sections contribute enormously to the greatness of a piece.

I share Quint's desire for a reworked main title theme for the new SW film. But while Hollywood has always been about recycling what has worked in the past, there are times when a reconception of an iconic theme has been done. Take Hedwig's Theme. The first three Potter films basically have the same version of it (with minor alterations). But by Goblet of Fire, it became much darker (@ 0:55 below): That said, there was more of an impetus to change things here: not only was there a new composer (Doyle), but the Potter stories are all about coming of age and so incorporate change in their very material. If a different composer had signed on to do the new SW films, we'd have a better chance of hearing a reworking. But even then, they'd still stick with the good old original, especially given that Star Wars is not a franchise about change the way Potter is.