Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I was doing some in depth listening to the lyrics of Gollum's song and was wondering is there any statement of what the point is behind the song? I was listening and trying to take the actual words and place them into Gollum/Smeagol speak. While they may not actually be entirely correct and i'm totally open to new theories, it was pretty chilling to listen knowing "who" is speaking.S: Where once was light, now darkness falls.foreshadowing of many things like gollum taking over, into the cave, sauron rising.S: Where once was love, love is no more.i think it's safe to say that smeagol was friendly to frodo.Don't say goodbye.?S: Don't say I didn't try.try to obey the master, get rid of gollum.S: These tears we cry are falling rain, for all the lies you told us, the hurt the blame.anger at frodo for betrayalS: And we will weep to be so alone. We are lost. We can never go home.go home as in turn back.S: So in the end I'll be what I will be.acceptance of gollumS: No loyal friend was ever there for me.anger at frodo etc.G: Now we say goodbye.to frodo, bye as in you dieG: We say you didn't try.try to be loyalG: These tears you cry have come too late.to smeagol?S: Take back the lies, the hurt, the blame.to gollum?G: And you will weep when you face the end alone.You are lost. You can never go home.gollum to smeagolof course there are a bunch of ways to talk about this, but i'm just fascinated at all the tenses in this song. I'd love to hear what other people think about the meaning behind the lyrics.Renovia Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I still feel chilly when listening to it. That change to "you" in the last part is brilliant I think, though I'm not sure if it's Gollum to Smeagol, I always took it to be Gollum to Frodo.Marian - wondering what the song in ROTK will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 http://pub108.ezboard.com/fthelotrmoviesit...picID=174.topic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 that link is another person's thoughts on the song. Like I said it is very very well thought out and haunting. a great "thinking" song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 OOOOO, in the bottom of that post too they talk about the meaning of the lyrics in "May it Be". This is good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 I can't help myself, here are two other people's interpretations...Ringbearer, I like the way you interpret the lyrics, but I myself interpreted them a different way:"Where once was light, now darkness falls.Where once was love, love is no more."Don't say goodbye.Don't say I didn't try."I agree with you on these."These tears we cry,are falling rainFor all the lies you told us,the hurt, the blame."Here's where I differ- "we" means that Smeagol is almost forgetting that he ever was Smeagol at all, and he doesn't even notice that he's using words such as that and 'us'.-"you" I think means that he is actually talking to Gollum, who made him countless promises of grandeur and power. Gollum told him that Smeagol needed him, that no one could ever like him, but that Gollum is his only friend, only companionship. Those being the lies, they led to the hurt, th 500 year solitude, and the blame: Gollum was shunned by his former friends, and even by his grandmother, after killing Deagol."And we will waitto be so alone."- Because of Gollum, everyone Smeagol ever cared for left him: Deagol, his other old friends and family who had shunned him, his grandmother he'd been sure would take him in, and probably others. He now waits for when Frodo and Sam will inevitably leave him as well. "We are lost,We can never go home."- Smeagol's soul is lost. "Home" is his old life. The lost soul can never become as it once was before the ring was found."So in the end,I'll be what I will be,No loyal friend,was ever there for me."- In the end, he accepts his fate, but retains the regret that no one helped him. And yes, part of him refuses to blame it on the ring. "Now we say goodbye,we say you didn't try."- I'm not sure with this; I'll have to think about it."These tears you cry,have come too late."- This part, instead of being from Smeagol's POV, is from someone talking to Smeagol. No a person actually talking to him literally, but just what Smeagol is being told.The "tears" are his regrets. If only he'd chosen to do something else, to be stronger, to resist the ring, or even to kill himself rather than kill Deagol and seal his fate. But it's too late, he can't change the past."Take back the lies,the hurt, the blame.?- Again the abstract person talking to Smeagol AND Gollum. It's telling them to take backall the terrible things they did together, and telling Smeagol to redeem himself. ?And you will wakewhen you face the end alone."- AP: He will only truly understand and truly be free moments before his own demise, because that's what it will take. "Alone", I think, could mean two things: that he is free of the ring, one person again; or that because of the ring he never had any true friends. "You are lost,you can never go home.You are lost, you can never go home.."- AP: repitition of what Smeagol told himself from AP's POV. His soul is lost, and, at least in life, he can never go back to the way things were.I think it's quite possible that the writer meant this way, or Ringbearer's way. Both seem to fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 May it Be:"May It Be"May it be an evening starShines down upon youA conection to Galadriel's words about "May it be a light for you in dark place". Earendil was the Quenya translation for what we call venus, the Evening Star. Also note the song title in that quote.May it be when darkness fallsYour heart will be trueIn the books, gimli says "It would be faithless to say Farewell when the road darkens" or something along those lines. You walk a lonely roadAnother Galadriel conection "To bear a ring of power is to be alone."Oh! How far you are from homeThe hobbits are essentially fighting for their home, and to save it, they must leave it.Mornie utulie ([Quenya:] Darkness has come)Believe and you will find your wayAlways believe in what you are fighting for, even when it seems hopeless, for Frodo is fighting for the "good in the world", and he gains hope when Sam says that.Mornie alantie ([Quenya:] Darkness has fallen)A promise lives within you nowGimli says in the books "oath may comfort a quaking heart."May it be the shadow's callWill fly awayQuite simple. May the dark be overcome.May it be your journey onTo light the dayThe people of ME long for sauron to be overcome, for the light to dawn again.When the night is overcomeYou may rise to find the sunThere is always hope. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 "Where once was light, now darkness falls.Where once was love, love is no more."- Smeagol is slowly being swallowed up by Gollum (or the power of the Ring), and is only a shred of his former self, unable to feel such things as love"Don't say goodbye.Don't say I didn't try."- Smeagol is not completely gone: he is trying to resurface and overcome Gollum"These tears we cry,are falling rainFor all the lies you told us,the hurt, the blame."- "We" refers to both Smeagol and Gollum, as both are affected- The "you" refers to both Frodo and Sam, though directed mostly to Frodo: the lies (such as when Gollum is fishing in the Forbidden Pool), hurt (forcing Gollum to lead them to Mordor and closer to Sauron, where he knows his precious will be destroyed: it's too much for him to bear), and blame (when Frodo accuses him of murdering Deagol when really it was the power of the Ring, or when Sam constantly accuses him of being a 'sneak'), causes Smeagol great grief, and causes him to diminish; Sam and Frodo are the closest he's come to friends in hundreds of years, so its understandable that he will take this so heavily."And we will waitto be so alone."- Gollum despairs at ever having his precious again, or perhaps dreads the time when he will abandon Frodo and Sam."We are lost,We can never go home."- He is lost without the Ring and is drawn to it: he cannot rest without it"So in the end,I'll be what I will be,No loyal friend,was ever there for me."- We are back to "I" and "me" as now it is just Smeagol. Smeagol hates what he has become, but part of him (Gollum) refuses to blame it on the Ring"(No loyal friend,was ever there for me.)Now we say goodbye,we say you didn't try."- Gollum has decided to bring Frodo and Sam to Shelob"These tears you cry,have come too late."- Gollum sees Frodo beginning to deteriorate under the power of the Ring."Take back the lies,the hurt, the blame.?- ??? (help!: why would Gollum want them to take these back?? It doesn?t seem to fit with the surrounding lyrics)?And you will wakewhen you face the end alone."- Frodo's sight and mind will no longer be overwhelmed by the Eye after he has rid himself of the Ring, but the burden will stay with him forever"You are lost,you can never go home.You are lost, you can never go home.."- Gollum predicts that Frodo will become like him, and will never be able to go back to what he once was or knew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 I'm wondering what Stefan's take on this since he likes the song so much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Well, I'm not going to go in depth on all of the lyrics, but I think that the song also shows the parallel between Frodo and Gollum's journey. A lot of stuff that is spoken of is Gollum's personal quest, but to me it also seems to resemble Frodo's journey to destroy the Ring, how he feels alone, and the fear that he might fail. The fall of Gandalf and the breaking of the Fellowship have left him quite shattered, I think.- Marc, who has to get on with his TTT transcript. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 5, 2003 Author Share Posted June 5, 2003 That is very true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 I'm proud of you Ren, in no time what so ever you have turned into a LOTR geek, and sure i played a small part in that fact.As for the song, it's is indeed very interesting to try and figure out the precise meaning.I have not done a extensive analyses like you have, but for me the first part is definatly Smeagol.I always imagined him singing to the One Ring, who promised so much, but gave him very little.Smeagol sings to the Ring, piotying himself and what he has become, then later Gollum takes over, and the song becomes more spitefull, more accusing.It's a brilliant song, wonder if they will be able to match it in ROTK.Stefancos- who thinks it's one of the best and most appropriate film songs ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 Thanks Stefan. I just completely adore that song. I find new things in it everyday and can't get enough. I guess I am a geek, all thanks to you.I can't imagine what the new song will be about. . .i have a feeling it's going to have to do with sam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Or another Aragorn/Arwen song. I wonder how exactly they will handle their story, since from what I've read, the Grey Havens will be the last scene in the movie - and I sure hope that's true.Marian - who has to check his dictionary to find out whether "grey" or "gray" is British every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 9, 2003 Author Share Posted June 9, 2003 grey havens. . . .hmmm i didn't think they were goign to do that much of the end of the book. so the scouring isn't happening but the havens will?I'm unsure now if sam will have his song. i bet it will be an Aragorn, Arwen love song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted June 9, 2003 Share Posted June 9, 2003 Scouring is out, but PJ has said many times that the Havens are in.Marian - who'd kill him if they weren't. (They're the whole point of the story, in a way) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 yeah, i wonder how they will handle saruman. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Spoilers about Saruman; highlight to read.Last thing I heard, Saruman is going to die at the beginning of RotK, when Gandalf expells him from the order of the Wizards. The theory goes that Gríma will slice Saruman's throat, knocking the old man backwards off his balcony, to land on a large spikey wheel, which will impale Saruman, who is still holding the Palantír, which rolls away and drops into the water.The seeing stone will then probably be picked up by Pippin, taken over by Gandalf, etc.At this point, this is considered to be the most likely theory, although rumor has it that over five different deaths have been shot for Christopher Lee's character. So who knows? Only Peter jackson, I guess.- Marc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 some people may not have know that saruman's favourite soda was sprite , Marc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Yeah marc, better alter your post.Stefancos- who thinks Marc is a "klikspaan boterspaan". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Breathmask 555 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 It's fixed. Now you edit your post, Ren. - Marc, who should have seen he put up a readable spoiler. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 10, 2003 Author Share Posted June 10, 2003 done.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 186 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 The last info (wether it's official or just a rumor i donÄt know) regarding RotK's song ist that this will be "Arwen's Song", that Liv Tyler has already recorded it last year, and besides her father and PJ no one knows the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted June 10, 2003 Share Posted June 10, 2003 Not even Liv Tyler herself?Marian - LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 11, 2003 Author Share Posted June 11, 2003 LOLthat would be neat to hear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted June 11, 2003 Share Posted June 11, 2003 I caught the fact the Saruman likes sprite before it was changed, but it's no big deal . . . though if I ever read the books, I'll probably wish I didn't know.Ray Barnsbury-who doesn't foresee himself reading them anytime soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted June 12, 2003 Author Share Posted June 12, 2003 shame on you, you need to read them Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pogiest 0 Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 I know that is has been over a year since this post was started, but this song is so haunting from a psychological sense, I had to chime in. I’m taking college level psychology and wow is all I have to say with what obviously Gollum is talking to Sméagol. Here is what I think is being said.The first two lines are a set up showing the transformation of Sméagol to Gollum.Where once was light, now darkness falls.I think this goes all the way back to when Sméagol took the ring from Deagol and killed him the process. Before the ring, Sméagol’s life was filled with light. The ring, being pure evil, smothered all the light (or good) out of Sméagol leaving nothing but darkness (which of course is the Gollum personality).Where once was love, love is no more.This is the transformation from Sméagol (who loved others) to Gollum (who loved no one but the ring).Don’t say goodbye.Gollum telling Sméagol don’t say goodbye to Frodo because that could lead to more attachment.Don’t say I didn’t try.Sméagol saying don’t say I didn’t try to get rid of Gollum.These tears we cry are falling rain, for all the lies you told us, the hurt the blame.Gollum’s anger toward Frodo for his supposed betrayal.And we will weep to be so alone.There, Gollum take over again leaving them sad and alone once again.We are lost.Gollum takes over again which makes Sméagol emotionally lost again, unable to feel love that he was beginning to feel toward Frodo.We can never go home.Gollum knows that he can never have his old life back and is therefore not able to return to the home he was born.So in the end I'll be what I will be.This is Sméagol’s acceptance of Gollum.No loyal friend was ever there for me.This is Sméagol saying no one ever had is back. Saying that Deagol was no loyal friend because he wouldn’t give the ring to him. Saying that Frodo was not loyal friend because of his supposed betrayal.Now we say goodbye.Gollum saying goodbye to Frodo.We say you didn't try.Gollum saying to Frodo that he didn’t try to be a loyal friend.These tears you cry have come too late.This is Gollum talking to Sméagol. He is trying to turn Sméagol from loving Frodo to hating him by telling him, “I told you Frodo didn’t love you and crying will not help you because it’s too late for that.”Take back the lies, the hurt, the blame.I read this as two possible answers. This is Sméagol telling Gollum to take back all the bad things that have happened to Sméagol because of Gollum. I also read this as Sméagol telling Frodo to take back all those nice things that Frodo said to him in light of his supposed betrayal.And you will weep when you face the end alone. You are lost. You can never go home.Gollum to Sméagol.What an awesome song that is trying to describe the multiple personalities of Gollum and the singular personality of Sméagol and the transformation between the two. I read all the books and have seen all the movies made from the books which do include the cartoons that were made. What a mind job! My hat goes off to John Williams for having Emilliana Torrini sing this song. She was able to put such anguish into her voice and she changes her mood between Gollum and Sméagol and the overall sadness that Sméagol feels because of Gollum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,200 Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Does Ren get an email every time somebody posts in this thread?Marian - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted August 22, 2005 Share Posted August 22, 2005 Dammit, stop getting my hopes up.Stefancos- who heard nothing from Ren, even after sending her a wedding card! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ren 75 Posted September 17, 2005 Author Share Posted September 17, 2005 I don't get an email but i love that post. Great study. This is still one of the most haunting lyrical works I've known.Renand yes I did get your wedding card Steef. I have it on my console. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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