ChrisAfonso
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Posts posted by ChrisAfonso
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Anyways, does anybody else think the melody from 0:41-0:48 of The Quest for Erebor sounds like Smaug's theme?
Well I have to say that connection didn't cross my mind when I listened to it. So no. But sounds vaguely familiar. Obviously I need to listen to this score a few more times!
It has a slight connection with Smaug's downward motif, yes. But it's also exactly the final quarter of the "Durin"(?) theme:
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BTW, am I right that the music that opens My Dear Frodo (playing under the studio logos) is a variant of the Durin theme?
No the AUJ titles are not related, I'm afraid.
So you're really saying this similarity is not intentional? Seems kind of striking to me.
Looking forward to the liner notes, apart from specialty label releases it's rare to get that level of insight delivered right with the music
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I couldn't find any mention of this on the last pages of the thread, but doesn't the melancholic theme from "Girion, Lord of Dale" from 2:24 an (first in the male hum chor, then in the strings) seem to be a minor version of the motif that opens (and almost closes) AUJ? The melodic arc in the first two phrases is very similar.
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P.S. I still remember watching the RotK EE and the Mouth of Sauron scene and being blown away by the absolutely brilliant snarlingly heavy set version of Evil of the Ring theme. Unashamedly melodramatic but oh so powerful moment.
Unquestionably one of my favourite parts of all of LotR. You have no idea how many times I've played that cue just for that bit.
Another similar moment I appreciate is "The Foot of Orthanc". All that churning and the snarling statements of Isengard and Gondor, oooh and that finale....LOVE it!
I love these outstanding small short moments in the middle of a track. Somehow the short appearance of the Lothlorien theme on basses in the middle of Shelob's Lair (it's been too long since last watching the film - I believe it's the "Aiya Earendil!" etc. vial moment) gets me every time, so that I often scrub back and repeat it several times... the way it seems to offer a moment of respite (while the trembling violins fade into the background), just to pick up its pace and lead back into the frenzy.
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Girl with a Pearl Earring is a lovely, small score, in character perhaps not that different from Book Thief
There are no big setpieces and immediately iconic cues, but lots of intricate, well crafted passages for small ensembles or solo instruments (the most memorable and touching for me being the cello and flute duo of Griet's theme, which is the antithesis of "melodically weak").But don't worry, most people don't like it. This place is becoming HSFan these days and Williams is passé already, it would seem...
Karol - who gave it another spin earlier today.
For a score like The Book Thief It's hard to compete with The Hobbit on matters of epicness and awe, which mostly dominate the general perception
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I may have missed something, Mr. Afonso, but did you hear any substantial amount of music outside the production diaries to justify your saying that Shore's replacement on Kong was not surprising because of lacking development and simplicity?
Because considering his work with Jackson on LotR and The Hobbit, as well as the quality of works like Aviator or Hugo or Eastern Promises in between, I would say the possibility of Shore not being up to scratch for Kong is extremely unlikely.
Don't take me too seriously on that point - it was just a snippet, although one where I thought upon hearing it the first time "Hm, sounds pretty much like something out of LotR, I hope that's not representative of the score as a whole". Sadly we never found out (but I hope hope's not lost entirely on that front...). Of course I can't judge the whole of that score on those few seconds alone, but as they were, they didn't sound very original, so when the rejection was announced, it crossed my mind if perhaps the score was too close to the LotR sound and Jackson wanted something different - judging from his films so far, he seems to value musical diversity.
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I'm not saying I'm really eloquent enough to put these points forward as precisely as I mean to (you'd need a wizard for that...)
These are my observations, and as mentioned a lot of it is deliberate on Shore's side to keep the music archaic (which works really well), other things are just intrinsic to his style, which has its strong points in other areas (just from the top of my head - compare Elfman, who is really good at creating very creative and intricate single cues, but less so on the "keeping it coherent for several hours" front). I haven't really heard anything by Shore yet that has convinced me that he is really comfortable at a more instrumentationally woven style. There are passages in The Aviator that really get the counterpoint going, but they're over very soon and devolve into LotR-minor-chord-swells-with-bass-string-arpeggios accompanied by castagnets. It seems he's more at home with more compact, concentrated sonorities and the development of those, rather than multilayered orchestrations of the interconnected kind. And at writing in his own style, he's really good. Wasn't that why Jackson is said to have approached him? He wanted the more psychological, internal side, rather than flashy fanfares (which Shore writes when it's called for, but holds back otherwise ).Forgive me, but... these points strike me as a tad clinical. Why can't contrapuntal lines jump? Why must modulation be not jarring? Why must there be intrinsic harmonic connection? It seems like you're judging these things based on guidelines for an exercise in a university harmony textbook.
When there's 12 hours of music being recorded, the passages of chords and suspense seem perfectly justified to me. Especially when it's music written for film, where sometimes the dialogue has to take presidence and let the music be atmospheric in the background.
Precisely - that's part of the whole operatic principle. Of course, one could argue that silence might be better, but....
re 1) Forgive me, but my impression is the opposite: that Shore's counterpoint writing sometimes seems more like an arduous course exercise, than a free artistic elaboration
I'd hope someone else is able to express this better than me, because of course it does not have to be not jarring, it can jump as much as it wants - as long as it sounds and feels musically justified, or deliberately aims for a jarring effect, of which I have the general impression that with Shore that's mostly not the case.re 2) Exactly, and that is where the strengths of this style come out: It allows him to keep the music (and suspense/mood) going while fading into the background and not doing much for a while - a sequence of repeated swells to carry over to the next moment where he can rise into the foreground again and heighten the excitement or segue to something else. But I'd dispute that this is "the whole operatic principle". In opera writing the "background music" (as much as music in an opera can be considered background) is usually more active in keeping with the development of the drama.
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I greatly enjoy Shore's Middle Earth scores and see that he put a lot of thought into them, resulting in a lot of beautiful, suspenseful, rousing and/or scary passages. And one thing you can really say is that they are really homogenous, not in the sense of everything sounding the same, but everything sounding like one big developing work. I think this is a direct consequence of his broad-stroke style to melodic writing and orchestration. A composer used to writing much more instricate counterpoint or even "Mickey-Mousing" (to mention the extreme opposite) would have had much more trouble to keep the sound coherent over so long an opus. I agree to what has been said before, Shore really has a very different style than the usual suspects of epic fantasy scoring, and I like that this sets his scores apart from others and makes them instantly unique.
But I have to agree with Publicist, that Shore often has serious limitations in writing effortless, organic harmonic/melodic progressions, subtle instrumentation and a lively texture, as much as it mostly works to his advantage in the case of these scores (as mentioned above). Between the high points, there are countless passages of simple blocky triads (usually in the low brass or strings) repeated for suspense, minute-long stretches of increasing tension scored via chromatically rising almost-full-orchestra block chords (taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ta Taaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa ta TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA TA TAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!), which becomes so formulaic that I wasn't really surprised about Shore's Kong rejection after hearing the exact same thing in the preproduction diary on those scoring sessions, and simplistic melodic ideas (mind you, not nearly all of them - but not too few, either). The strength of those simple melodies lies in the variation and interconnection throughout the scores, which is the reason I really enjoy discovering those and listening to the slow development. When he writes counterpoint, similarly to his harmonic progressions, it often feels forced - laboriously crafted to mostly fit together, but not exactly organic. Again, I feel I have to interject this, I enjoy many of those passages, but I see the limitations there - repeated sudden jumps in a counterpunctual line, jarring modulations that are only motivated by fitting to the underlying harmony... And regarding the comparison with Wagner earlier: Wagner uses to modulate a lot (in later works often constantly) and thus moves from one key into the other. Shore often jumps without any established connection. Yes, he also uses mediant relations a lot, and this is a nice trademark of his style, but there are also places where it just seems that there is no intrinsic harmonic connection.
A loaded topic, I know. I just enjoy this music for what it is, for what it isn't, and for what it evokes - there are so many passages in the trilogy, and some again in the first Hobbit score (and I hope many to come) that move me profoundly, I can't even start to count them (and that's not only because of the connection with the source material, I was in love with "The Ring goes South" and the Dwarrowdelf reveal as soon as I got the first CD back then, two weeks before the film).
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RETURNING themes I hear in these samples:
03 A Necromancer
0:02-0:27 is this a new variation of Descending Thirds?
08 Barrels Out Of Bond
0:00-0:13 Bilbo's Adventure Theme
0:22-end Bilbo's Fussy Theme
12 The High Fells
0:09-0:11 is that choral word from the Ringwraith theme?
0:11-end the High Fells strings from Edge of the Wild
13 The Nature of Evil
all The Woodland Realm theme (theme when Thranduil enters Erebor in My Dear Frodo)
17 Durin's Folk
0:18- 0:28 Erebor
18 In The Shadow of the Mountain
all Is this the opening logos theme from AUJ?
19 A Spell of Concealment
0:11-end Descending Thirds
21 The Courage of Hobbits
0:09-end The Shire
22 Inside Information
0:07-0:09 first two notes of Smaug's Theme
24 A Liar and a Thief
0:200:25 Smaug's inverted theme (from Axe or Sword)
Did I miss anything?
Good list! From what I can make out, I would add:
10 The Forest river
The motive started in the horns and continued in the trumpets sounds like a more action-oriented variant of the Woodland Realm theme
20 On the Doorstep
Erebor motive at the beginning and end. Also, the short horn bit in the middle is reminiscent of "Into the West", but I'd guess that's coincidental
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That's even better!
I only knew the audio podcast. -
Here should be a link to a lecture where he discusses the process of writing his percussion concerto (I can't verify if it still works, I don't have a working flash plugin here...):
http://www.newmusicbox.org/articles/Make-Your-Own-Rules-Notes-on-Composition-from-John-Corigliano/
Adding to the list of excellent recommendations, I would recommend his magnificent opus magnum (30 years in the making) "A Dylan Thomas Trilogy" (available on Naxos for a few €). Though the title is rather opaque and doesn't evoke much, it's an epic work reflecting back on the life of an artist, connecting several poems from different stages in his life to form a coherent whole, ranging stylistically from sweet nostalgic romanticism to the harshest orchestral palettes we know and love from him and the likes of Goldenthal
Also, if you're open to opera, "The Ghosts of Versailles" is available on DVD at amazon.com, and a great joy to watch. Also ranging from harsh and atonal stuff to homages to Mozart and Rossini, to something you could almost classify as a Disney villain aria (starting shortlz after 3min:)
)
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Nicely put! My CD just arrived and I'm listening to it right now. It's nicely diverse with a wide range of moods going from bittersweet remembrance to harsh atonal action. Really unusual for a "Hollywood" film score these days, sure. Perhaps too unusual for the studio's tastes? And it's not because he's not a gifted writer, it's just that he doesn't know how to write film scores, real film scores like that.
...SCNR
A pity that scores like this are so rare these days.One thing that tripped me up a bit was the passage right out of his percussion concerto in the track "Pursuit". I wonder which of those he wrote first, and if he perhaps tried to "rescue" some of his rejected score in the concert work.
And I wonder if the end of the trumpet crescendo in the middle of "Revenge" was followed by a gunshot in the film, as it reminded me strongly of the end of his Symphony No. 3 "Circus Maximus".
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Their Russian is quite terrible, by the way.
But then again, much better Sean Connery's.
Karol
Didn't the filmtracks page for the score have phonetic lyrics? The hymn ist still the only russian song I know (almost - been a long time) by heart. Fortunately nobody with any knowledge of the language ever heard me sing it
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For them to create the cheapest reissued "special editions" possible...
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Melodic comparison of Book thief theme (its first part anyway) and Angela's Ashes theme:
It looks even more similar if you switch the 1st and 2nd (or 3rd and 4th) phrases of AA
From listening to the samples I really like the sound, classic Williams. The theme is nicely simple and memorable. However, there's not much here that's really new (as was already pointed out)... let's wait for the whole score before declaring the next masterpiece
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Is the OST only 1 disc? That's a surprise, but understandable.
The purple colour scheme really suits this design and adds a touch of elegance to it. Hopefully you won't end up with those cheap cardboard covers again
Yes I checked Amazon (both US and UK) and they list only 1 disc for the regular OST.
And yes I am hoping Europe will receive a sturdier SE case this time since the previous one feels both flimsy and cheap in comparison with the international one.
Amazon UK and US list 10th of December as the release date but neither version is available for order yet.
Did I completely miss this? There's a version with better case out there? I was kind of disappointed last year when the I got the CD and the packaging didn't live up to the LotR collector's editions (with textured faux-leather exterior). -
Mine also arrived today. I didn't try tracking, though.
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This reminds me of the TV program about his "The Fly" opera that I recorded last year and still haven't watched... which I should remedy.
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My recent discolicious ordering binge:
Some Horner for a change, at least from what I recognize it's comparatively light on direct rips, and the theme is enjoyable and catchy.
After Karol mentioned in Vienna how Davis was actively urging people to buy it and stuff, how could I resist any longer?
I had this on my Amazon watch list for quite some time, but now took the plunge and bought it. I can't really say I have done more than scratched the surface a bit in listening on the side (have to put in a concentrated session with libretto sometime), but between occasional stretches of not very ear-catching lengthy monologues of the singers with minimalistic accompaniment, there are frequent passages where Davis's Adams (and Kernis, I guess) -inspired really comes out and lets the orchestra shine with layered frenzy, or even occasional haunting solo passages. The really contrasting thing here are of course the short bursts of salsa music, which don't really connect much with the rest of the music but are very fun on their own, until they abruptly segue into the next orchestral passage without much of a transition. I would definitely recommend this to fans of Davis's, but prepare to put in some effort digging into the core of this music.One remark on the audio quality: Overall the recording sounds quite good, but I found the voices of the singers often lacking in a clear intonation, too much of a wide open-ended vibrato for my tastes that left me guessing which note was meant. And the choir sounds really dense (in part due to Davis's style of writing, as known from "Neodämmerung"), which sometimes results in a massive wall of sound that makes it hard to really hear the harmony there.
Only knew the Main Title before, which I found really charming. Listening to the CD at this moment for the first time, very solid, classic Elfman. Quite a range from the sweet and playful to really dark and tense.
I wanted to get this for some time, and now with the reduced Halloween special at LLL this was the moment to get it.
Still awaiting:
As an avid fan of Corigliano's work, I absolutely had to get this, as shady as the publisher seems to be. From what I could gather this release is legitimate, after all it's also listed on the composer's home page.
Ahem...closing some gaps in my collection of classic scores
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The Observers' way of reproduction and their life in general in 2609 are explained near the end, maybe in episode 11. The roles of September and the other original 11 are also explained. You might not like the explanation, but it's at least explained.
As for why they're "malicious and invading Earth," in the season 4 episode "Letters of Transit," Walter explains that in 2609, where the Observers are from, the world has become so polluted that they can no longer live there, which is why they decided to come back to 2015.
...which doesn't seem very future-proof to me (wasn't that also the premise for this dinosaur-series-thing last year or so?). The way the Observers seemed to treat the Earth after their invasion, I'd guess it would have gotten polluted much quicker this time around... and what then? Back again 600 years? Settle America before Columbus arrived? Overrun the Middle Ages? Overthrow the Roman Empire?
I agree, though, the strength of Season 5 was in the character-driven parts... and some exceptionally quirky ideas ("Through the looking glass..." and the Python bit).
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Thanks everyone for the nice comments
Yes, it's very short, it somehow sounded longer in my head 
I hope Williams (or whoever will score the next film) expands a bit upon the theme and won't leave it by the wayside...
Fantastic Chris, i would love to hear that recorded with a real orchestra. By the way, what are you doing in Graz? I thought i was the only Styrian JWfan on the board
I moved here last year, so for a long while, I guess you were
And since I'm a Piefke, I don't really know how much of a Styrian JWFan I can call myself -
It definitely was in the "What I like most is the silence" moment. But for me that has to do with this line triggering an expectation of experiencing a moment of this silence. Without it I'd find the music there to be wonderfully spotted. It portrayed that awesome long lingering panning shot over the Earth's surface rather well.
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But didn't the presentation of disc 1 of the promo match up with the leaked track list some weeks before the CD release that got changed to accomodate the cringy songs? That would be a point against "just the sessions as recorded".
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oh, just checked too my spam folder.
All emails from them went there.
Yeap same here.
D'oh, of course mine are there too.
Howard Shore's The Desolation Of Smaug (Hobbit Part 2)
in Tolkien Central
Posted
The first one or two times I just listened to it, letting myself be blown away by several cues (with increasing frequency towards the end). After that I started to notice more and more of the themes and motifs, paying closer attention to the interconnections, while letting myself be blown away some more.
So, yes and yes!