Chen G.
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Posts posted by Chen G.
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42 minutes ago, crumbs said:
"Well, ultimately they're just children's films."
- George Lucas
Exactly.
The least children-oriented is "Empire Strikes Back", which is by far the least lucrative entry of the whole series.
This new trilogy is all PG-13 and the "The Force Awakens" does feel more dire than the original Star Wars, but I wouldn't say its truly dark in the way that "Revenge of the Sith" is.
Part of why that is so, has to do with the witty banter between characters. There's some sort of joke in every other line of dialogue and it does inject levity into the story. Its a bit much for me, but it is what it is.
I like my films serious and, by that token, dark. It puts the audience in a state that allows for more emotional involvement.
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14 minutes ago, Arpy said:
It's a mixture of nostalgia and iconicism. There'll be many people here who grew up with the films, and more fascinating is that some grew up with the original trilogy and others the prequel trilogy, two very distinct and different eras of filmmaking unified under the umbrella of 'Star Wars'. I also think there's a fair argument to be made that the commodification of the franchise is becoming more transparent with Disney's takeover - it always was a force of nature with marketing, but maybe it's getting out of hand now? With age I'm also reticent to fawn over the franchise too.
Star Wars is as nostalgic as it is because it originaly aimed at a very young demographic. They were, essentialy, kids' films. They have moments of gravity or darkness, sure, but their tone is mostly dominated by "fun space adventures."
I only encountered them as an adult. They're just not as big a deal outside of the US, so I wasn't growing up in a scene of popular culture that was as informed (or saturated) with Star Wars.
Now, I enjoy grandeur of scale in films, so I'm not against long running franchise, but I think there is certainly a point where a series is drawn too thin. There is something to be said for a sense of finality in film.
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It's not like they're huge forces to recreate, but yeah.
Even the Lord of the Rings performances, which have been known to reach gargantuan sizes, don't reinstitute all of the unusual orchestrations in that (two timpanists, double brass, etc...).
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Yes, he abandoned his plan for nine episodes before making Return of the Jedi. His original idea was basically to stretch the original trilogy over six films, and break up the sextet with a prequel trilogy in the middle. He probably later realized how stupid this was.
But don't tell that to Kathleen Kennedy.
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Beats me.
But It was after Lord of the Rings. Large orchestral forces (not to mention choirs, and o-daiko drums) were the currency at the time.
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Williams only used a full string section in the prequels which, along with his expanded high woodwinds and percussion (for depicting machines), explains the size of the orchestra in the latter two prequel scores. Episode III also had two timpanists, probably because Lucas liked LOTR so much, although I believe Williams also did this with the contemporary War of the Worlds.
The forces for Force Awakens (and, it would seem, for The Last Jedi) are really no smaller than those deployed in the original. Its just the LSO's brass section (8.4.3.2 I believe) that gave it more volume, but it also had less woodwinds.
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http://www.violinist.com/blog/laurie/201512/17235/
I'm almost sure they returned to the string roster of the original: 14.12.10.8.6 and two harps. The brass section is six horns, four trumpets and trombones and a single tuba, I believe. The woodwinds I'm quite certain are 3.3.3.3. Two keyboardists, a timpanist and the rest are on percussion.
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If she turns out to be another Skywalker, I'm setting out on a quest for Mount Doom to cast the film into the fire.
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5 minutes ago, Holko said:
Yeah, just compare them to the Emperor's guards (which the Praetorians pay direct homage to), they were really worn, grungy and dirty... Oh wait...
I get your point, and even agree to a degree, but you managed to pick a horrible example here.
Well, that's from Return of the Jedi so that doesn't count.
I said the original Star Wars.
Also, if Johnson is trying not to make a derivative film (in his own words) the design on the praetorians is just awful. They're just about the same as the Emperor's guards, minus the cape.
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Rian Johnson said that while he will deal with her lineage, the course of the narrative isn't going to hang over that question.
SpoilerThe leading theory supported by alledged leaks is that she's a reincarnation, possibly of the very first force user or some such thing.
- Pieter Boelen and Will
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I know a lot of people who enjoy looking at film critically (perhaps not in quite the cerebral manner that I like, but still) who made Force Awakens to be their favorite/most appreciated film of 2015. So for a lot of people, even ones of a critical deposition, it is playing in the masterpiece playground.
Nostalgia can have a strong influence, and appearantly not just on the weak minded.
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I definitely remember that, but I don't know if he didn't hear the music. He did say that Howard was famous as a "one man band" although that's true for many of his projects; and that doesn't necessarily apply to Williams himself.
To be fair to Conrad and possibly to Williams, Doug once said that they don't hang around quite the same social circles as Howard, and naturally that effects whether they'd be inclined to hear each other's works.
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If they'd be fleeting and just add life to the planet, it'll be fine. Although there might be a tonal mess between the porgs and fish-nuns and what is clearly going to be a very brooding Luke Skywalker.
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Ah yes, the Porgs. And we only see their top here. According to Rian Johnson, they have chicken feet. And don't forget Johnson's fish-nuns.
Is it just me, or does all of this betray the worn and torn aesthetic of the original Star Wars or even the Force Awakens. Just look at how polished and plasticized Snoke's guards look.
1 hour ago, Brónach said:Among films of those times, I'm better off watching the Pirates of the Caribbean trilogy on all those levels
Hey, I'm not going to sit here and claim that Episodes I and III are brilliant cinema (unlike The Hobbit
). All I'm saying is that I can watch them and be entertained enough such that the negative aspects don't dominate the experience.
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Well, we do have a good idea of the composer's intentions from interviews, LP liner notes, etc. We also know that Williams' typically assigns themes to characters first and foremost. Williams refered to the theme as "Ben Kenobi's theme" although he did mention that it also refers to the Force, but it's clear from the notes that, in Williams' mind at the time, the theme was primarily for Ben. When Empire's LP came about, it was changed into "The Force theme."
Now, leitmotifs never have a one-to-one relationship with their subjects. They tend to stand for a number of closely associated ideas, often ranging from a broader meaning to a narrower one, and the broader meaning isnt always the dominant one.
The question is, therefore, which of the two applications is the most prevalent in the scores. In the original Star Wars, the theme is first for Ben, and has a broader association with the Force. In later scores it (gradually) goes the opposite way.
Anyhow, the point remains that Williams' often uses his themes as a suggestion of mood. It's not nearly as much as to make his thematic construction meaningless or anything like that, but to my mind it happens a bit too often.
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Its called using the theme romantically. And, to be fair, virtually all composers do it, and I actually like is when its used sparingly. Although I'd say Williams does this a fair bit more than others, and quite possibly more often then he should.
The Force Awakens is one of the worst offenders in that regard. The Rebel Fanfare is used throughout as a theme for the Millennium Falcon. A lot of those are by the design of Williams himself, rather than the director forcing his hand. In Attack of the Clones, the Duel of the Fates is there even in the album version. The Princess theme for Ben's death is another example, as is Yoda's theme in Cloud City. Hell, in the original Star Wars, the Force theme was just Ben's theme. Then what the hell is it doing in the Binary Sunset scene or during the Throne Room sequence? Even later, when it became more of a theme for the force, it isn't always warranted, e.g. when an AT-AT is knocked down or when Dooku escapes. I guess one could find explanations for those instances, but they're all very tenuous. They are just used for their romantic effect, not for their thematic meaning.
Spin off composers like Giacchino sure aren't helping when they use The Force theme for wide-shots of ships taking off or for Bail Organa. And of course tracked music like the "Arena March" doesn't help either.
The Nazgul theme I would say isn't on par with that. It is entirely consistent with the way its used in the Prologue to Fellowship and on Amon Hen. Its also consistent with the use of the Ringwraith chords under a lot of the Goblin and Warg music. Hell, Azog's own theme is a variation on one of the accompaniments that you'd often find under the Nazgul music. We need not forget that the Nazgul theme is derived from another theme: The Power of Mordor, which is fitting.
Gondor Reborn, however....
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As a business idea, probably no. It was the only sure way to get the fan-base on board, which would get the ball rolling in terms of critical acceptance.
As a creative endeavor, sure there were other ways. And while it is the first film in a trilogy, it is a film that stand on its own right. To return just for a moment to the Middle Earth films, it's not like this trilogy was all written and shot ahead of time.
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I think those kind of hick-ups in continuity are part of his attempt to base each episode to the best of his ability on new thematic material, so we end with themes and motifs like the Imperial motif, the Droid motif or even Anakin's theme being all but discarded between episodes.
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From a cinematic stand point, no, the destruction of Aldeeran is nothing like the killing of the Younglings, much less like Han Solo's death.
Its also another gripe that I have with the film: It staged Han Solo's death as a means of stressing Ren's ruthlessness, not the tragedy of Han's death. And his death doesn't inform the rest of the narrative. Rather, we're plunged back into the action.
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Yes, but I am talking about it from a narrative standpoint. Killing children that we as an audience know nothing about is a lesser crime, narrative-wise , than killing a character we have a strong connection with. Plus it was entirely off-screen.
And yes you could bring Anakin's Dark Deeds from the prequels, but I bet they weren't in George Lucas' mind when he conceived Anakin's Redemption for Return of the Jedi. Nothing in the original trilogy is that dark.
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If it was just patched over his death is it really a leitmotif, though?
I think by listening to the soundtrack and listening to the movie with intent we can get a pretty good idea of the thematic work. Although some stuff like Jedi Steps would require hearing the next score or two for sake of context, in order to properly classify, as well.
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6 minutes ago, Nick1066 said:
someone will be redeemed, and the Galaxy can go back to its shiny, pristine self.
Would I pissed if they stage it such that Kylo Ren gets redeemed. What could they possibly do that is enough to excuse patricide?
STAR WARS - Live To Projection Concerts
in JOHN WILLIAMS
Posted
Well, when you're staging Gurre Leider or something like that, you kind of have to do those reductions. Just like recruiting twice the trumpets (or the entire brass section) just for the charge of the Rohirrim is just not feasible.
In the meanwhile, the program for Return of the Jedi was published. No choir is mentioned.
I don't get it, it's an amplified performance so they could have got away with a small choir like in the original recording. It doesn't even require singers of unusual range.