LOTR Pale Horse, Pale Rider comment

Ren · February 1, 2003

Let me state at the very beginning that I'm NOT . . . . ABSOLUTELY NOT trying to have a biblical discussion here.

Ok, here goes, what ever you post please refrain from you know what. . .

As I'm reading LOTR, I'm noticing all the Pale Horse Pale Rider comments when discussing Gandalf. Is this connection intentional do you think? or does it happen to be a coincidence? Is there more to this story than the written word? Are there more references like this that I'm missing?

very curious,

Ren.

PLEASE be mature about this. I really would like some answers, not a locked topic.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · February 1, 2003

It's White Rider, actually.

I'm not familiar with the Bible at all though, so I can offer no further insight.

Stefancos- who knows Tolkien was a fervert Catholic.

jsawruk · February 1, 2003

I do not wish to offend anyone with what follows, as I am presenting a scholarly argument, rather than a religious one.

I think the idea, so far as I can figure out, is the contrast between Gandalf as White Rider and Nazgûl as Black Riders. Here we see polar opposites in color, which is a theme very prevalent in contemporary thought. Religiously, this developed in the Western world out of the Gnostic religion, and then spread into Christianity. Today, however, such thought is common. We see the metaphor mostly as white being pure and black being void (of life or whatever else...). Also, doves are white, and so white also may signify peace. Similarly, the black may be related to the black death etc.

We see this imagery in a lot of literature. I do not think it is anything of great importance. We see the same imagery in Star Wars (the Dark side of the force...), and in countless other places.

Since Tolkien was Catholic, I think that it is interesting described in Catholic terms. I have tried to analyse Tolkien's world from a Catholic viewpoint, and have made the following observations:

Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are equivalent to lower choirs of angels, such as Cherubs or something.

Eru is unquestionably God

Morgoth is Lucifer/Devil

Valar are seraphs

Elves are Prophets

Although, this does not account for what the Rings are in this model. Perhaps they are the deadly sins. If so, why 9 unto men?

Tolkien believed in applicability. His work is not allegory, and I do not mean to present it as such. However, I think it is possible to see from whence some of his ideas developed.

Ren · February 1, 2003

I beg to differ Stefan,

in the movies they call him White Rider..

but I just read a line in ROTK (i believe) that called him a Pale Rider on a Pale Horse. But I'll have to look further into it since I have three stories going here. . .I'm reading ROTK, I'm listening to FOTR, and watching FOTR, and just saw the other day TTT......

who knows Tolkien was a fervert Catholic.

perhaps this is a connection. . . deeper than we think.

think the idea, so far as I can figure out, is the contrast between Gandalf as White Rider and Nazgûl as Black Riders. Here we see polar opposites in color, which is a theme very prevalent in contemporary thought. Religiously, this developed in the Western world out of the Gnostic religion, and then spread into Christianity. Today, however, such thought is common. We see the metaphor mostly as white being pure and black being void (of life or whatever else...). Also, doves are white, and so white also may signify peace. Similarly, the black may be related to the black death etc.

I agree, i'm sure this imagery is very much what he intended.

We see this imagery in a lot of literature. I do not think it is anything of great importance. We see the same imagery in Star Wars (the Dark side of the force...), and in countless other places.

true true, very true

Since Tolkien was Catholic, I think that it is interesting described in Catholic terms. I have tried to analyse Tolkien's world from a Catholic viewpoint, and have made the following observations:
Gandalf, Saruman, and Sauron are equivalent to lower choirs of angels, such as Cherubs or something.
Eru is unquestionably God
Morgoth is Lucifer/Devil
Valar are seraphs
Elves are Prophets

when you make these observations: you open up a HUGE realm of thought here. . .wouldn't this make a neat Philosophy class on a campus?

Although, this does not account for what the Rings are in this model. Perhaps they are the deadly sins. If so, why 9 unto men?

because men are weak? is that what you are asking?

Tolkien believed in applicability. His work is not allegory, and I do not mean to present it as such. However, I think it is possible to see from whence some of his ideas developed.

Really good points Jeremy. I wonder if he ever said he didn't write from an "allegoric" stand point. Or if there's more here than we think.

You know like the whole back ground of the Wizard of Oz......

Ren · February 1, 2003

i'll link to this article too: here may answer some of my and your questions.

Before advancing this argument too far, however, I should acknowledge that both scholarly as well as popular literature has been debating Lord of the Rings? allegorical meaning, at least since the 1960s. Newsweek magazine recently derided the insistence of journalists on comparing the imagery of Peter Jackson?s film adaptation to what the magazine calls ?modern-day political realities.? After compiling a list of analogues between the film?s characters and the characters of 9/11 (including Dubya as Frodo and Afghanis as any of the hirsute dwarves, elves, hobbits or wizards), Newsweek concludes that ?now we understand why J. R. R. Tolkien emphatically denied allegory in his works? and that we should ?take him at his word? (Beith 2002) However, Newsweek is not entirely correct in this assertion. Most notably embraced by anti-nuclear activists after its publication in 1952, the Lord of the Rings has undergone many appropriations as allegory. Tolkien in fact encouraged the view of his work as an open-ended allegory, yet denied particularly specific allegorical applications. For example, in a preface to the book, Tolkien refuted reading Lord of the Rings as an anti-nuclear statement, yet noted how World War I had served as the initial inspiration for the work. Tolkien scholar Jane Chance observes how Tolkien wrote the second volume of Lord of the Rings during World War II when he served as an RAF pilot over Africa (Chance 1992). According to National Public Radio, Tolkien considered Lord of the Rings ?an allegory of the inevitable fate that waits for all attempts to defeat evil power by power,? ? in other words, a kind of master allegory (Dowell 2001). A Milwaukee Journal Sentinel article quotes from a 1953 letter in which Tolkien argues that Lord of the Rings is ?a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision.? Having studiously avoided either putting in or cutting out any reference to religion, Tolkien concludes that the book?s religious aspects are thoroughly ?absorbed into the story and the symbolism? ("Tolkien's Rings" 2001).

there is a lot more on this at this link, but it't too political to post here. . .

Luke Skywalker · February 1, 2003

Well i read somewhere that The Balrog vs Gandalf was something like Satan vs god or something. And Gandalf words 'you can't pass/cross'? I think there is some Catholic chant speaking that someone (i suppose bad people, won't cross/pass. I dont remember it very well...

Ren · February 1, 2003

hey. that sounds like something worth looking into...

maybe you meant that the balrog was an evil person. . . .i mean if he was satan and he was defeated. . .then things would end at FOTR right? :thumbup:

Luke Skywalker · February 1, 2003

Well i think that it was the 'scene'. of course the Balrog is not Saur...tan :thumbup:

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · February 1, 2003

Ren, Luke, in the foreword that Tolkien wrote for LOTR he clearly states he hates allgory in every type or form, therefore I think you are reading to much into this.

Stefancos- :roll:

Ren · February 1, 2003

stefan, did you even read what i said up there? did you even read my quote?

you can think we are reading too much into this if you like and that's fine......i understand that he didn't mean it to be allegorical, i'm sure these are probably coincidences, but neat to ponder.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · February 1, 2003

I beg to differ Stefan,
in the movies they call him White Rider..
but I just read a line in ROTK (i believe) that called him a Pale Rider on a Pale Horse.

Hmmm....I don't have time to browse through the whole book, but my memory clearly says WHITE RIDER.

Also, Chapter V of The The Towers is called THE WHITE RIDER.

And the index has the following entry:

White rider, see Gandalf

There is no entry for Pale Rider

I wonder, since you probably have an American edition of LOTR, that perhaps a change was made for somewhat obvious reasons. (political correctness)

Stefancos- :?

Ren · February 1, 2003

no no no no no....

i'm going to get you on this!~ I'm going to spend the rest of the weekend trying to find that page!!!!! :devil: :thumbup: it was just in passing, like someone was talking about him. ..it wasn't that he was called that ALL the time.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · February 1, 2003

stefan, did you even read what i said up there? did you even read my quote?

Yes, but I stand by my comment, the author clearly states that LOTR is NO allogorical story for anything, therefore i find the practice of trying to find allogorical references in LOTR to be a pointless exercise.

But by all means go ahead and debate about it.

Stefancos- wondering when Morn will discover this topic and ruin it. :thumbup:

Ren · February 1, 2003

i was just wondering that too. :wow: :thumbup:

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · February 1, 2003

no no no no no....
i'm going to get you on this!~ I'm going to spend the rest of the weekend trying to find that page!!!!!

Talk about pointless exercise.

it was just in passing, like someone was talking about him. ..it wasn't that he was called that ALL the time.

One line, in a book 1137 pages long

This whole discussion is based on ONE line???

Atleast this means you are enjoying the book.

Also, what is The White Rider in it's Biblical context?

Stefancos- who has never read the Bible, and probably never will.

Ren · February 1, 2003

here comes morn i think

i'll find it for you

Ren · February 1, 2003

yes, all of this discussion based one line, one page in the book.

and yes i really do like it. it is written so well, i could never image having prose like just seep out of me.

Revelation 6
8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

please DO NOT START CONTEMPLATING THE ACTUAL TEXT OF THE QUOTE.

this is the same type of wording that they used in The Stand too, that's why it struck me i think.

Ren · February 1, 2003

a couple lines before it = it says this too.....

I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conqueror bent on conquest.

Morn · February 1, 2003

What's the significance of it being pale?

Ren · February 1, 2003

pale=white

Morn · February 1, 2003

Ohh that all. You could just as easily call it a symbol of racism. :thumbup:

Ren · February 1, 2003

pale=white=peace

jsawruk · February 1, 2003

Although, this does not account for what the Rings are in this model. Perhaps they are the deadly sins. If so, why 9 unto men?
because men are weak? is that what you are asking?

Not at all Ren. I am merely trying to figure out a numerological signifigance to 9, and that number does not seem to be signifigant to me. If it were 7 to men, then we could apply a 1:1 correspondence of rings to the deadly sins. Perhaps I am missing the signifigance of the number 9, but I can not find an obvious solution.

But then again, that may be the point. Making his own mythology, Tolkien chose a number not signifigant in other mythologies. Who knows.

Any ideas?

Ren · February 2, 2003

9 9 9 i'll look into that.

jsawruk · February 2, 2003

But Ren, remember its 9, 7, 3, 1 for the rings (men, dwarves, elfs, sauron). I just dont understand why there are 9...

Ren · February 2, 2003

maybe it's the total number that's important.

Luke Skywalker · February 2, 2003

Revelation 6
8I looked, and there before me was a pale horse! Its rider was named Death, and Hades was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.

Ren i think gandalf has nothing to do with that. In that quote it says that the pale Horse is the Death's horse, the apocaliptic rider. I think that Pale in that context doesnt mean white but death like pale. Are the horses like theirs riders? In the videogame Hexen II it was so... :roll:

And i never stated my opinion, i read it somewhere (well the catholic song song was mine)

Ren · February 2, 2003

i realize 'that' quote doesn't really mean gandalf but i was thinking more along the line battles where gandalf is the winner...

BUT did you read the other quote?

jsawruk · February 2, 2003

maybe it's the total number that's important.

Here's all I can find so far:

9+7+3+1 = 20

7+3 - 1 = 9

7x3 - 1 = 20

Coincidence?

Also, maybe 9 as in the 9 planets (but there are only 8!)...

Who knows!

Ren · February 2, 2003

i don't think it's a coincidence. i think it definitely has a meaning. maybe some theorum or something.

Marian Schedenig · February 2, 2003

Yes, Stefan, Tolkien hated allegories. But he also says he doesn't have anything against applicability. And considering all the stuff he wrote about his work (see e.g. "Letter" - which I still don't have), it was certainly meant to be applicable. And as the fervent catholic he was, I don't think there's any doubt that there are many intentional similarities here - some of them have been addressed by JRRT in his letters.

BTW, comparing Bush to Frodo has to be the greatest insult to LOTR I've ever seen. ROTFLMAO

Marian - who sees many doves in Vienna, but 99% of them are grey.

:sigh: Schindler's List

Ren · February 2, 2003

if you are referring about the pic, that was wael's idea and was in fun,

if you are referring to people making allegorical connections between US politics and LOTR, then yes, it's a little absurd.

February 2, 2003

About the nine Rings of Men... Frodo is struck down by one of the Fallen Kings of Men, who was turned by one of the nine Rings...if we are relating the Rings to sins, and the Nazgul to Men, I wonder if this has any biblical reference?

Heir_of_Slytherin

Marian Schedenig · February 2, 2003

if you are referring about the pic, that was wael's idea and was in fun

Oh, I like that picture. ROTFLMAO I was referring to the comment in the article you quoted.

Marian - who will see TTT again tomorrow.

:sigh: Captain Blood (Erich Wolfgang Korngold)

Ren · February 2, 2003

it was a pretty funny pic!

i don't know about the references. . .definitely not intentional though.

Morn · February 3, 2003

if you are referring about the pic, that was wael's idea and was in fun,
if you are referring to people making allegorical connections between US politics and LOTR, then yes, it's a little absurd.

I think Bush has the most in comman with Boromir.

Luke Skywalker · February 3, 2003

Marian, what does the comment about the doves mean?

Luke, whose country is being conquered by Collared doves.

#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal · February 3, 2003

I think Bush has the most in comman with Boromir.

Bush has more in common with one of the Sackville-Bagginses then any other character in LOTR.

Stefancos-

Ren · February 3, 2003

lol

watch your step guys.

Marian Schedenig · February 3, 2003

Marian, what does the comment about the doves mean?

Jeremy said, "also, doves are white". I was just pointing out that most doves here are grey, very few are white.

Star Trek: Nemesis (Jerry Goldsmith)

Ren · February 3, 2003

really?

Marian Schedenig · February 4, 2003

Yes. Is that unusual?

Luke Skywalker · February 4, 2003

White doves?! THAT is unusual. unless they are american (which i know few birds from there)

lets see, the common dove, has stripped wigs with gols or similar, the Colladed dove is very light brown-grey.

collared%20dove%20from%20p1261452%20o.jpg Collared Dove

Common dove

that's the ones i know (and i think the only european ones

NOTE: the collared dove is spreading thoughout Europe nowadays, about 20 years ago it was rare. I think it comes from asia. :shakehead:

Marian Schedenig · February 4, 2003

None of those two really looks like those you'll usually find in Vienna. bowdown You'll find a few white ones here, but they're the same as the grey ones, aside from their colour obviously.

Marian - who hates them, they make dirt and crap on windows and buldings. :shakehead:

Luke Skywalker · February 4, 2003

Marian....are you talking about Pigeons? Your description (crap all over the city..ect) seems to.

If not could you post a pic of them?

Luke, wanting to know a new species

Marian Schedenig · February 4, 2003

Yes, pigeons. That's exactly the right picture. What's the difference between pigeons and doves? The German word for them is the same...

Marian - who wants to know.

jsawruk · February 5, 2003

According to my dictionary, a dove is:

Any of various widely distributed birds of the family Columbidae, which includes the pigeons, having a small head and a characteristic cooing call.

So in that sense, a pigeon is a dove (I didn't know that before). I'm not biologist, but it sounds like doves and pigeons belong to the same genus, but are slightly different species.

A white dove is a symbol for peace in the United States. It carries over from the Biblical reference to a white dove carrying olive branches to Noah after the flood. Also, I may be wrong, but I believe the white dove may be Christian symbol for the Holy Spirit (third part of the trinity).

Hope this helps. Don't mean to offend anyone!

Marian Schedenig · February 5, 2003

Yes, I think the white dove=piece symbolism is valid internationally. And I'm pretty sure you're right about the Holy Spirit symbol, but I could be wrong, I know pretty much nothing at all about religion.

Luke Skywalker · February 5, 2003

:? Here the peace simbol is a White Pigeon, as is the Holy spirit.

Well... it has to be a pigeon. Pigeons since the roman empire have been domesticated and now we have several breeds, and colors. the white is one of them.

I think you misunderstood the dictionary. I think it says Doves belong to the Family Columbidae, and then explains that pigeons too, at least that is what i know.

Well doves and pigeons are from the same family but different species. Doves are smaller and tend to live in the woods, they are wild (but collared doves are beggining to be city lovers too) and pigeons (the domesticated ones) live in cities. There is also of course a wild breed of pigeons that has the same coloring of the pic i posted (its the original animal as wolves and wild/mountain cats IE), but only that color (no variations with white, brown, ect). The biggest of the group is the wood pigeon, which is wild, has a tipical wthite dot on each side of the neck and in each wing - well i saw them in paris in the parks and they came to eat, here they can be seen in big parks but the do not come close to people.

There is also another wild pigeon that i do not know the name in english, it has light blue and pink as main colors and iridescent marks in green.

And i forgot about the 'voice'. Pigeons do some like barbling while doves, at least for me, seem to do a sound similar to owls.

I'm speaking of european species (the ones i'm aware of)

I hope that this help you

Luke, amateur ornithologist

Ren · February 5, 2003

there,

i thought i was losing my mind for a minute.

LOTR Pale Horse, Pale Rider comment

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