Justin 2 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Hey all, recently I just got my hands on a copy of Williams' Black Sunday score, besides the fact that it really is one of Williams best action scores I was struck by the suprisingly short Main melody. It's heard throughout the score. It's eight notes long and is played very quickly (most likely they are Eighth notes) which gives a very motif like feel to it. So that got me thinking, what exactly is the diffrence between a theme and motif? Shortness? All the notes are the same length? No rests in between notes? Just thought I would ask. Justin -Who also noticed a trumpet bit that plays in the first track that could have been another theme.P.S. Feel free to discuss Black Sunday as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Longbottom 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 I imagine a theme consists of motives. Like that a Theme can be represented by a string of motives or leitmotivs. But I'm likely wrong. Justin, better wait for the correct resolution. I'm eager to know it too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 The definitions are not that clear I think, but the main difference is functionally. A theme is meant to be varied, transposed, inversed, developed in the course of a piece, a motif is more like a fixed statement which returns unchanged throughout a piece. It has no developmental qualities but serves to depict a certain event/person/idea (e.g. Leitmotif). As a consequence, a theme is usually longer than a motif indeed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nja 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Dictionary defs . . .theme- the principal melodic phrase in a composition, especially a melody forming the basis of a set of variations. motif (or motive)- a short rhythmic or melodic passage that is repeated or evoked in various parts of a composition. Just as your were saying, YL, that a theme is often made up of motifs.Perhaps an example of a motif would be the first 7 notes of the main Star Wars theme or even just notes 3-7 (Eb-D-C-Bb-----F)- just a snippet of the main melody but unmistakable wherever it pops up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MSM 126 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Hm.. I wasn't that far beside the truth! Nor was YL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,211 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Of course, the term "leitmotif" is often used for themes, and "theme" is often used for bits that are used like leitmotifs, both themes and real motifs... (e.g. the Philosopher's Stone "theme", which is just a three-note motif)Marian - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyob 0 Posted September 10, 2003 Share Posted September 10, 2003 Hi,A motive is the germ of a musical idea. It's based on rhythm and intervals. Probably the most famous motive is the first 4 notes of Beethoven's 5th symphony. A motive is the germ cell on whichphrases and larger themes are built. Beethoven's motive is based on rhythm (short,short,short,long) and the interval of a 3rd. A motive is manipulated through the use of inversion, diminution,augmentation, retrograde, and transposition just to name a few. Hope this helps.Gary Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 11, 2003 Share Posted September 11, 2003 I'd say shortness.Motif=Death Star Motif,Cross of Coronado Motif,(Philosopher's)Stone Motif...ect..too short for a "concert version".K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Albaicin 0 Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Garyob mentioned that the first four notes in Beethoven's fifth constitute a motif. But in that case the difference is not so clear. Those first four notes (G-G-G-Eb) constitute the main and only THEME within that first movement. But if we consider the rest of the symphony we realize that Beethoven used them as a MOTIF. The same rythm is an obstinato in the second movement; the same rythm repeated four times (G-G-G-G G-G-G-G G-G-G-G Bb-Ab-G-F) is the theme in the scherzo; and the same rythm links the scherzo to the last movement in which it appears a number of times in different ways. Williams, for example, composed a theme for Princess Leia, but from the first notes he extracts a motif that appears whenever he wants to evoke her. So Garyob is right: the germ for Princess Leia's theme is Princess Leia's motif (and the same happens with the rest of the characters). And King Mark is also right, since a motif will always be shorter than a theme.Actually some people compare Williams technique in Star Wars with Wagner's Ring, where the German composer developed the 'leitmotiven'. With Wagner you talk about motifs rather than themes. For instance the motifs for the Rheinmaidens, the Ring of Fire, the Ring itself and the Forest Murmurs are apparently different, but are built from the same 'germ'. The motif for Faffner the Dragon is built from the motif for the Magical Helmet (which turns Faffner into a Dragon), and is also linked with the motif for the sword Notung (which is used to kill Faffner). Wagner's work is much more complex, developed and subtle than Williams', but we must realize that Wagner spent 28 years composing the ring, whereas Williams had only 6 to 7 months (two months per movie, I guess). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jsawruk 0 Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Here's my 2 cents:Motif - a short musical idea, usually less than a measure long (sometimes a beat or 2). For example, the first four notes of the first movement of Beethoven's 5th is a motif (or cell) which frequently appears in the rest of that movement. Motifs can almost never be shortened, for shortening a motif would make it unrecognizable to the listen.Theme - a theme is generally longer, comprising usually a complete phrase. For example, the first phrase of the Star Wars theme is a theme. Themes may be shortened or lengthened through the processes of development and variation.Leitmotif - a theme or motif associated with an extramusical idea, usually on stage/screen character, but could also be a setting, mood, etc. An example of a leitmotif that is a motif would be the string leitmotif in Herrmann's Psycho. An example of a leitmotif that is a theme would be The Imperial March.Just remember that motif and leitmotif are different. Though most people will understand if you say motif where you should say leitmotif, they are technically two different things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marian Schedenig 8,211 Posted September 12, 2003 Share Posted September 12, 2003 Jeremy is back!Marian - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted September 14, 2003 Author Share Posted September 14, 2003 So what would you classify Black Sunday as? I'd have to say Theme jumps to mind more because the whole theme is about 10 notes long. Then again it is based on rythmn and is performed in a motif like way. It's curious.Justin -Still not sure... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I'm trying to hum some part of Black Sunday to reply...but I can't remember it.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted September 15, 2003 Author Share Posted September 15, 2003 I have a 15 minute sweet along with the rest of the score. But if anyone wants it they can contact me via MSN messenger I'll gladly send it to them. It could take awhile though. Justin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 I have that sweet.K.M.Who'll put it in his HD tonight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Suites leave a bad taste in my mouth.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yoda Longbottom 0 Posted September 15, 2003 Share Posted September 15, 2003 Jeremy is back!Marian - Marian, I had wished Jeremy would come back and told us; I knew he's very well versed in these terms and knows what each means. And although we were somewhat able to come to an acceptable conclusion self helpfully, my wish came true after all...! Yay, Jeremy's back!!!!!! And now we're complete. Roman.-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justin 2 Posted September 18, 2003 Author Share Posted September 18, 2003 Suites leave a bad taste in my mouth.I guess you don't have a suite tooth...Justin - Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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