Beethoven and Star Trek

[Figo 2]

I was listening to a radio broadcast of the Suisse Romande Orchestra last week, and the commentator was speaking about the Beethoven symphonies. The general consensus is that, for as great as the 9 symphonies of Beethoven are, the composer seems to have reserved his stronger material for those with odd numbers. To which the commentator added, quickly, as an aside, "Which, of course, is opposite the case with the Star Trek movies."

And some of you still labor under the delusion that all classical music people are pretentious!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not all, just you.

Stefancos- :roll:

[Figo 2]

That's what I get for sharing. And that, from a film score snob.

Figo, wondering if it would kill Stefancos to listen to The Planets.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'pretty sure i've heard it years ago, when i sampled some classical stuff.

I KNOW i heard Rite Of Spring in those days.

Didn't really grab me.

Stefancos- expecting Figo to use the pukeface emoticon.

[Figo 2]

Figo, never one to disappoint.

[Marian Schedenig 8,206]

Hmm....the Ninth is of course somewhat in a class of it's own, and the slow movement of the 7th is also unsurpassed, but I enjoy both the Pastoral and the 8th more than I enjoy the Eroica and the 5th.

Marian - who would like to add that Horner used the 9th in Sneakers.

Willow (Horner, Schumann et al.)

[Figo 2]

Yes, I too love the Pastoral and the 8th. But the odd numbered symphonies are the ground-breakers. The 3rd, possibly the first hardcore romantic symphony, exceeding all classical expectations of length and scope. The 5th, with its rejection in the first movement of a traditional classical theme in favor of a four-note motive, which went on to become the most famous four notes in all of Western music. The 7th, called by Wagner the apotheosis of the dance, and yet Beethoven imbues it with a grandeur that far transcends the simple contredanses of Mozart and Schubert. And the 9th -- well, quite simply the most influential symphony ever written. By contrast, 2, 4 & 8 are pleasant trifles -- I always think of chickens clawing at the earth when I hear the minuet -- and 6 is, well, pastoral. I think that's what the commentator meant.

[Morn 8]

Urg, Beethoven, I dunno, he just seems too light and frivolous to me, even when trying to be dramatic.

Now Mahler, there is the the man. Anyone noticed the start of his 1st symphony in the original series main titles?

[jsawruk 0]

I don't think that statement holds true. I think Beethoven's 6th symphony was great, and his 1st symphony was ok, but it was not as good as his 6th.

[Tom Riddle 0]

Is that technically true, or emotionally true, or just a gut feeling, or your theoretical analysis.???? LOL

[Figo 2]

Jeez, do you guys read, or do you just let your eyes roll down the screen?

In the first place, I am merely relating what the commentator said. In the second, it is a widely held conception (or misconception, if that be your opinion) that Beethoven reserved his weightier arguments for the odd-numbered symphonies. The First doesn't count; with the first two, the composer was just beginning to feel his way around. The First almost sounds like Haydn. The Sixth is a mature masterpiece and does not deserve to be lumped in with the First. Also, the Sixth is long on charm, but other than the movement depicting the storm, it is not exactly high-voltage. That doesn't take away from its magnificence, but it does support the argument.

Morn, are you a complete imbecile, or do you just like to play one on the board? Your comments about Beethoven being light and frivolous are so far off the mark I can't even take them seriously. There was no more violently revolutionary figure in 18th century music. Why do you think we still listen to his symphonies? Because they're pretty? Well, some do, I'm sure, but to his contemporaries the music was very upsetting. Such turbulence was merely hinted at in the sturm und drang symphonies of Haydn and Mozart, but Beethoven seized audiences by the throat and didn't let go. He exploded the polite constructs of classicism and almost singlehandedly ushered in the romantic era in music.

There would BE no Mahler without Beethoven. Your remarks show all the depth of understanding you displayed earlier when you said, blithely, "Tchaikovsky is overrated. Try Prokofiev." Perhaps you should back up your seemingly stupid assertions with some reasoning. Or perhaps you don't have any reason? You regurgitate these tired "truisms" like an immature college student who is feining some sort of intellect. Why don't you think for yourself, Morn? And quit condemning a brilliant innovator of two hundred years ago for not writing like a brilliant innovator of a hundred years ago. That's just plain ignorant.

[Morn 8]

My criticisms were not intended as objective critisms! But purely unimportant subjective criticisms based on emotional response. Take what I said with a grain of salt, as was intended.

Well, some do, I'm sure, but to his contemporaries the music was very upsetting.

Of course it was when they had Haydn and Mozart, they are far worse, but today Beethoven sounds mild. I am quite aware of how Beethoven was the 19th century Stravinsky, I respect his significance. It might seem absurd to you, but I think that Beethoven is too light and frivolous compared to the likes of Prokofiev, Mahler, Stravinsky, Shostakovich etc. Plus his orchestrations are flat. The opposite is Tchaikovsky, his orchestrations are perfection and he is definately not frivolous, he just meaders on with half interesting ideas, in my opinion.

Morn - Who thinks that he at least didn't say what Herrmann, who disliked Beethoven, said "da da da DAA, bah anyone can do that!"

[Figo 2]

I don't know, Morn, I don't think Beethoven's orchestrations are flat. In fact, they are very rough-hewn, when compared to, say, Mozart. Tchaikovsky was a very sincere composer, possibly the most subjective Russian composer of his era. If you don't find his "ideas" -- more like emotional outpourings -- interesting, that is your fault, not Tchaikovsky's. But we all know your extraordinary resilience when it comes to matters of the heart (and to the head too, for that matter).

Sorry, Prokofiev is not the most profound composer. He was drawn like a moth to the brilliance of Stravinsky, and then flirted with the stylistic grotesqueries of Shostakovich, but he lacked the depth of either composer. He had his moments -- the Sixth Symphony, for example -- but if he had lived in the 18th century, he would have been a composer of simple divertimenti (as his Classical Symphony attests). Expertly crafted music and melodically distinctive, but not someone who who built his reputation plumbing the depths.

That doesn't mean I don't love his music.

[Morn 8]

I don't know, Morn, I don't think Beethoven's orchestrations are flat. In fact, they are very rough-hewn, when compared to, say, Mozart.

Did I say Mozart was a great orchestator?

Tchaikovsky was a very sincere composer, possibly the most subjective Russian composer of his era. If you don't find his "ideas" -- more like emotional outpourings -- interesting, that is your fault, not Tchaikovsky's.

All composers are not for everyone.

But we all know your extraordinary resilience when it comes to matters of the heart (and to the head too, for that matter).

Bah, don't be absurd, Williams frequently makes me cry.

Sorry, Prokofiev is not the most profound composer.

I never said he was profound, but like you said he has his moments. Beethoven does not even have moments And Tchaikovsky's moments are questionable.

[Figo 2]

If my grandfather's generation had allowed the Japanese to sweep across that miserable little island of yours, I would not be having this problem today.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Australia is not a little island, it's huge.

Isn't it bigger then your country?

Stefancos-

[Figo 2]

I assure you, I meant "little" in the most demeaning sense.

And just because you're using one of brilliant witticisms as your current signature, don't think for a moment you are above my horrible retribution.

[Morn 8]

Hell, NSW is the size of Britain.

[Figo 2]

You've got convicts and kangas in your blood, boy.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And just because you're using one of brilliant witticisms as your current signature, don't think for a moment you are above my horrible retribution.

That's the only thing in which i'm not above you.

Stefancos- who does not fear the wrath of Figsy...

[Figo 2]

From hell's heart I stab at thee!

Figo, donning the prosthetic chest.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Dammit, those breasts were real!!!

Stefancos-

[Figo 2]

I could have sworn they were Corinthian leather.

Riccardo Montalban, all man.

[jsawruk 0]

Is that technically true, or emotionally true, or just a gut feeling, or your theoretical analysis.???? LOL

Technically, Beethoven's 1st, 2nd, and 9th are the best. Emotionally, it's the 3rd, 5th, 6th, and 9th. A gut feeling tells me the 9th. Theoretical analysis tells me the 9th, but my heart tells me the 5th.

Actually, historically, Beethoven's 6th is seen as a major break from classicism towards romanticism. And even though the 3rd had some romanticism in it, it wasn't fully realized until his 9th.

LOL

[Figo 2]

Oh great -- The Theorist. :roll:

Teach me, oh learned one! Teach meeeee!

[Morn 8]

All I hear is.

jsawruk "I know more than you"

Figo "No, I know more than you"

[Figo 2]

Shows what you know. LOL

[jsawruk 0]

What who knows? And what do you want me to show what I know?

[Figo 2]

:roll:

I believe I was addressing Morn.

[Morn 8]

LOL