Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Ah, I see what you mean. He transforms the chromatic F-F-Gb-Gb-E-E-F-F motif into a cluster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted July 29, 2014 Share Posted July 29, 2014 Mark, do you have good papers in Secundal Harmony - listing all of the occurrences like with the Auvil?I've now had some time to look into this but nothing comprehensive is coming up. When I search terms like secundal harmony, tone clusters, and the like, one name keeps coming up - Henry Cowell. Maybe he was the first to use them extensively. In any case, the research that comes up is hardly theoretical. It's been very disappointing, as have many concepts we've wanted to study on 20th-century music. Atonal sets are about the only thing that have a substantial amount of research. It seems there's still a ton of work to be done in many other areas.Haven't given the North a deep listening yet. Hopefully soon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Mark, do you have good papers in Secundal Harmony - listing all of the occurrences like with the Auvil? I've now had some time to look into this but nothing comprehensive is coming up. When I search terms like secundal harmony, tone clusters, and the like, one name keeps coming up - Henry Cowell. Maybe he was the first to use them extensively. Henry Cowell was a pioneer in the use of piano clusters, along Leo Ornstein and others at the turn of the century, but I think secundal harmony as different. Not black key, white key or chromatic clusters pressed by the elbow or forehand, but careful use of seconds, sevenths and ninths - whether they're major, minor or augmented. That said my distinction owes a lot to Persichetti's 20th Century Harmony. For examples of 'Secundal Harmony' he lists the following: Bartok: String Quartet No. 3Blomdahl: AniaraCopeland: Piano SonataDebussy: Preludes Volume IIMilhaud: Christopher ColombPoulenc: Promenades for PianoRuggles: Men and MountainsTogni: Fantasia ConcertanteVilla-Lobos: String Quartet No. 3 Whereas for Clusters, he lists: Berg: WozzeckBloch: Piano SonataCowell: Silt of the ReelHovhaness: MagnificatIves: 19 SongsRiegger: Music for Brass Choir Pt. 1Varese: Ionisation --------------Could someone help me with the chords from :57 onwards.Sounds like Em7 -> CmMaj7/Eb -> ?/D -> ?/Db -> CMaj7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hmm...Sounds to me like Em7/G -> Gmaj7 -> CmMaj7 -> Emin -> Dmaj -> CMaj7 -> B -> Caug11#5Still, without a tonal center, this is, at best, an educated guess on my part.Then again, if I were to assume that the default "keyless" tonal center is C-major, I come up with this chord progression:iii - V - I7 - iii - V/V - I7 - V/iii – IDefinitely sounds like an Appalachian Chord progression at the penultimate cadence before "resolving" to the tonic.Man, I hate atonal work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I can't really hear that. It feels like a chromatic descent in the bass to me - starting at G 48 seconds in. The last two before the cadence to CMaj9 sound like Bm/D and Db7b9. The last hinting at tritone substitution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I can't really hear that. It feels like a chromatic descent in the bass to me - starting at G 48 seconds in. The last two before the cadence to CMaj9 sound like Bm/D and Db7b9. The last hinting at tritone substitution.It's all right if you can't hear it. I have perfect pitch, so that's how I came up with the notes.Anyways, a chromatic descent is basically an Appalachian chord progression. I was just listening to the figured bass when I drafted that chord progression.It took me a few passes to nail that last chord, and I didn't know what else to call it.It's basically (and do contest this in the event that I'm wrong) a diminished chord (B - D - F) on top of an augmented chord (C - E - G#); i.e. C - E - G# - B - D - F.What would you call such a chord? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 I have pretty good relative pitch and a piano my side, and I swear that you've got that last chord (the one before the C Major 9th) correct, except the lowest note is Db. I can hear the major 9th clash between the Db and the D, along with the open fifth (which in that register is unmistakable). I'd call it Dbm7(b9,#9).I Googled 'Appalachian chord progression' but I couldn't find it. Is it from Appalachian Spring? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Hmm...After listening to that last chord again, I find that it's very, very muddy down there (must be a contrabassoon). So you're right. It was Db.And I made a mistake in calling it an Appalachian chord progression. I meant to say Andalusian cadence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 But is the Andalusian Cadence chromatic? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Yes.Actually, despite its name, it isn't even a cadence. It's a descending tetrachord.Alternatively, that chord progression could also be a lament bass (which would explain the descent beginning in the Phrygian mode and also fitting the overall sorrowful mood of the piece). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Ok, I think there's a slight misunderstanding here. By chromatic, I'm talking about the bass voice descending by semitones, not the upper tetrachord from a minor scale (i.e. C-Bb-Ab-G). I've written it out in Noteflight as I hear it. Take a listen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 So was I. For a lament bass (a type of basso ostinato), there are two different versions: diatonic and chromatic.For the diatonic version, it begins in is the upper tetrachord from the natural and wends it way down through semitones.For the chromatic version, the semitones are all filled in (which appears to be the case for your rendition which seems to go like this: root -> semitone -> chromatic -> chromatic).In light of this, I am confident in calling those last four chords (in your nicely executed rendition) a lament bass.Also, I'm seeing in your rendition that for the final chord, you retain that the root is in fact a C and not a Db as you posited. Is this a mistake? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Also, I'm seeing in your rendition that for the final chord, you retain that the root is in fact a C and not a Db as you posited. Is this a mistake?I always said that the resolution was a CMaj7 - it was the chord before it that we were talking about. We agreed about the diminished chord in the upper half, but not the lower half. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Also, I'm seeing in your rendition that for the final chord, you retain that the root is in fact a C and not a Db as you posited. Is this a mistake?I always said that the resolution was a CMaj7 - it was the chord before it that we were talking about. We agreed about the diminished chord in the upper half, but not the lower half.My mistake, then.So in light of everything we've discussed so far, what can we conclude from the chord progression? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Also, I'm seeing in your rendition that for the final chord, you retain that the root is in fact a C and not a Db as you posited. Is this a mistake?I always said that the resolution was a CMaj7 - it was the chord before it that we were talking about. We agreed about the diminished chord in the upper half, but not the lower half.My mistake, then.So in light of everything we've discussed so far, what can we conclude from the chord progression?That like you said, it involves a lament bass, starting at the dominant (G) and ending on the tonic ©. Plus there's noticeable jazz infections to the harmony, as usual with North. It's all block voicing, which creates a dark, muddy sound in the lower registers, especially with the dense orchestration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Is that the actual handwritten score for the passage you posted?If it is, bravo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted October 28, 2014 Author Share Posted October 28, 2014 Sharky every time we talk about North I remember this piece from my school days that always seemed in the same vein as his music. Check it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted October 28, 2014 Share Posted October 28, 2014 Is that the actual handwritten score for the passage you posted?If it is, bravo.Ha! No, it's from another cue ('Triumphant Dragon'). It's something I saw posted on a blog.Sharky every time we talk about North I remember this piece from my school days that always seemed in the same vein as his music. Check it out. Hmm. I kinda of hear it in some of the dissonances, but it lacks the jazziness of North, or his strong Russian influences. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 7, 2014 Share Posted December 7, 2014 <iframe width="560" height="315" src="//www.youtube.com/embed/C0YZ2mVfneM?rel=0" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe> Can someone help my decipher these chords? The first one is Dmadd9, but after that it becomes intensely dissonant, almost clustral. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted December 9, 2014 Author Share Posted December 9, 2014 Well it sounds like it follows a pretty straightforward tonal pattern, with a lot of chromatic second/ninth doublings in those quaver phrases. Ludwig would like that - what does he call it, "bristling?" I'll have to sit at the piano to try and work it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 9, 2014 Share Posted December 9, 2014 Yeah, I think it goes like this:F-A D-E F-A D-E etc.F#-G D-Bb F#-G D-BbF-Gb A-C F-Gb A-CBasically the harmony is outlined by dyads that exchange octaves every other bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 Does anyone want to try and transcribe the running organ line that starts at 0:25? It appears in several other cues if it isn't clear enough here. I can get most of it but some of those higher points just blur together because of the rich harmonics of the mixture stops. Shouldn't have listened to music so loudly when I was younger. Sigh. Take note kids, if you care about how clearly you can differentiate between high frequencies. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gFTRNcvWTNc Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Sure, I'll take a crack at it.Alright so I took a shot during my break. Just did the first phrase, it's pretty much the same after that, but with octave doubling and some minor differences. The same goes for all the other instances in the album.By the way, did I mention how much I hate Noteflight? Dixon Hill 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Thought I might bump this for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted December 10, 2014 Author Share Posted December 10, 2014 Ah ha, thank you for that. Yeah maybe it's not just my ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 10, 2014 Share Posted December 10, 2014 Nah. It's just the way he blends everything together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Sounds neat!Do you want me try my hand at it? Some of those dyads get a bit complex, but I could whip something up tomorrow (have studying to do tonight lol)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 No probs. You can hear a Mancini-esque arrangement of the theme here @2:12 I have a feeling it's Dmadd9 -> GmM7 -> Ebm6/Gb -> E7b5 -> Dmadd9 > Gm9 -> A7b9 -> DmM7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sharkissimo 1,973 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,222 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 By the way, did I mention how much I hate Noteflight? What do you (and the other musical folk here) normally use for notation? I've just become acquainted with LilyPond. It's the bees' knees! (Although that's from the perspective of someone with virtually no other experience of notation software.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I know the question wasn't directed at me, but I wanted to chime in, anyway.I'm a Finale user. It's like the Pixar of notation software (Sibelius being the Dreamworks of notation software). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,222 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I know the question wasn't directed at me... 'Twas directed at all and sundry! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Very good, old chap. Glóin the Dark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 Glóin the Dark 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 And of course, there's always the traditional method of composing as TPG shows here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,222 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 What is this new devilry? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedBard 71 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 What is this new devilry?New devilry? What, has written notation for Gregorian chants not been invented yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,222 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Gregory used ChantWorks on his iPad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Yeah, like TGP said, I'm a pencil and paper kind of guy. But when I need things notated for print, I use Finale. I've been thinking of switching over to Sibelius soon though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Faleel 5,350 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 I'm a Finale user. It's like the Pixar of notation software (Sibelius being the Dreamworks of notation software).So Finale is selling out, and Sibelius is steadily (and perhaps slowly) improving? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted December 11, 2014 Share Posted December 11, 2014 Basically. I've been hearing some better things about Sibelius. Greater flexibility. Any Sibelius users here?By the way, did I mention how much I hate Noteflight?What do you (and the other musical folk here) normally use for notation?I've just become acquainted with LilyPond. It's the bees' knees! (Although that's from the perspective of someone with virtually no other experience of notation software.)If you want an easy-to-use, aesthetically pleasing notation software to start off with, try Notion 3. That's what I started off with. It pretty much covers most of your basic needs, but doesn't have the really advanced stuff you could get with Finale. But it's still a good program! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted December 11, 2014 Author Share Posted December 11, 2014 The little I've worked with notation software leads me to far prefer Sibelius. Finale is clunky, perhaps acceptable if you're ok with having to deal with a lot of computery shit while you try to think about what you're actually doing. Which I am not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glóin the Dark 1,222 Posted December 12, 2014 Share Posted December 12, 2014 If you want an easy-to-use, aesthetically pleasing notation software to start off with, try Notion 3. Cheers; I'll make a note of that. My concern in the last week or so has been incorporating small fragments of score notation into text documents, and for that purpose LilyPond has proved to be brilliant. Not so sure how practical it is for producing larger scores. My upcoming beer bottle concerto might require a different program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 6, 2015 Author Share Posted January 6, 2015 Anyone with perfect pitch/a good ear for intervals want to try and figure out what temperament Jeremy Soule uses? I know he tunes everything to A=446.99 instead of A=440, but he also has something other than equal temperament going on. He's said it's not Pythagorean tuning I believe, even though it does sound very close to that. I'm not sure that he does it outside of Skyrim as I don't really listen to his non-Elder Scrolls stuff, but any track from that album should be a demonstration. I just love how this opening chord shimmers in a slightly different way. Sharkissimo and Glóin the Dark 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 Where's Sharky these days... color me concerned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ludwig 1,120 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 I wonder the very same thing. Sharky, you still here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Who? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dixon Hill 4,234 Posted January 7, 2015 Author Share Posted January 7, 2015 A better poster than you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KK 3,307 Posted January 7, 2015 Share Posted January 7, 2015 Yeah, where has the ol' chap gone to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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