Composition Feedback... another (WMA)

[FossMan 1]

Well, similar to what Saxman has done, I'd like to showcase one of my works for full orchestra, as produced through an old SC-33 Roland Sound Canvas and recorded as a WMA.

Hope you like it... you can download it here.

[Guest]

"White Wolf"

Boring, dull, cretinous, uninspired, unoriginal, unimaginative, unskilled, instantly forgettable, futile, pitiful...

should I go on?

Possibly the most mind-numbingly tedious piece of music I have had to subject my ears to this century. The melody sounds like something a child would improvise on a toy, the harmonic movement and arpeggios are puerile cliched drivel of the highest order, the ostinatos sound like something out of a tacky computer game nightmare, the counterpoint is non-existent, the emotion is that of a stroppy ten year old boy.

Honestly, why would you even bother? You and your music are about as interesting as watching grass grow.

Of course that's only my opinion, I'm sure others might find your piece wonderful.

[King Mark 3,631]

Boring, dull, cretinous, uninspired, unoriginal, unimaginative, unskilled, instantly forgettable, futile, pitiful...

should I go on?  

Possibly the most mind-numbingly tedious piece of music I have had to subject my ears to this century. The melody sounds like something a child would improvise on a toy, the harmonic movement and arpeggios are puerile cliched drivel of the highest order, the ostinatos sound like something out of a tacky computer game nightmare, the counterpoint is non-existent, the emotion is that of a stroppy ten year old boy.  

Honestly, why would you even bother? You and your music are about as interesting as watching grass grow.  

your such a nice guy,A.I.

K.M.

[Morn 8]

WMA is the tool of the devil.

[Saxman717 22]

"White Wolf"  

Boring, dull, cretinous, uninspired, unoriginal, unimaginative, unskilled, instantly forgettable, futile, pitiful...

should I go on?  

Possibly the most mind-numbingly tedious piece of music I have had to subject my ears to this century. The melody sounds like something a child would improvise on a toy, the harmonic movement and arpeggios are puerile cliched drivel of the highest order, the ostinatos sound like something out of a tacky computer game nightmare, the counterpoint is non-existent, the emotion is that of a stroppy ten year old boy.  

Honestly, why would you even bother? You and your music are about as interesting as watching grass grow.  

Of course that's only my opinion, I'm sure others might find your piece wonderful.

OMG...........I thought I got it rough yesterday morning.........dude, AI.......WTF?!

There is a thing called constructive criticism. It is far different than blatantly aggressive bashing. Are you looking for attention?

You should at least offer some suggestions and whatever. You're making a real fool/jerk of yourself on this board.

Haven't heard the piece yet, will listen sometime today or this weekend

[MSM 126]

Well actually I am getting interested in AI's work...it must be quite good

[Lurker 5]

I've learned to take everyone of "AI"'s posts with a grain of salt. He/She/It seems to be a borderline troll.

Neil

[FossMan 1]

WMA is the tool of the devil.

Heheheh... sorry, Morn. It was originally an MP3, but then I was able to make the file even smaller by converting it to a WMA format. With only limited room granted by my ISP, smaller is better.

Boy, out of everyone who's posted here, none have given mentionable feedback yet. Heehehe... rough crowd.

[MSM 126]

Hey Fossman there are certainly good things to say about your piece I think and since I don't want you to have the only feedback by AI I will!

I liked your piece. Although the themes are not that strong the different sections feel coherent together which is very important in my view. Personally I think the counterpoint and clear instrumentation in the first half are quite good. I liked especially the section with flute and harp in eights and triplets and your use of an organ. Am I right that orchestration is a strong side of yours? Regarding to structure be careful to keep the motion in the music going on, especially in the quieter passages.

After all, you did write a full orchestral piece which deserves respect!

Well this is just my humble view hope it will be helpful!

MSM - who would love to hear Fossman's next piece

[Guest]

I've learned to take everyone of "AI"'s posts with a grain of salt.  He/She/It seems to be a borderline troll.

Neil

Just because someone says something you may not like or agree with, doesn't justify devaluing that human being to the status of "It", now does it? Neil?

I am a person, same as you, with my own opinions, like them or not, It is my intrinsic right as a human being to have them, and state them. Most of my posts here have been relevant to JW, so how does that make me a troll? And why do you feel justified in dehumanizing me to the status of "It"?

AI

[Saxman717 22]

I've learned to take everyone of "AI"'s posts with a grain of salt.  He/She/It seems to be a borderline troll.

Neil

Just because someone says something you may not like or agree with, doesn't justify devaluing that human being to the status of "It", now does it? Neil?

I am a person, same as you, with my own opinions, like them or not, It is my intrinsic right as a human being to have them, and state them. Most of my posts here have been relevant to JW, so how does that make me a troll? And why do you feel justified in dehumanizing me to the status of "It"?

AI

Um.........are you justified to tell someone they "suck" or that their work is "cretinous" and "unskilled" just because you either have a bad day (or life) or actually really don't like a piece?

If you honestly think that everything you've said in the past few days has been your "opinion", well then you most definitely deserve anything that comes to you.

After all, it's just someone's "opinion", right? How can you question that? So IndySolo has the opinion that you post less-than-human messages frequently. So he compares you to a troll. It's his opinion and right to "dehumanize" you to a troll, just as you outright claim it is your right to "dehumanize" Fossman's hard work to something "cretinous". :roll:

[King Mark 3,631]

it's hard for me to imagine from synths what it would be like played by an orchestra.i can't even tell by Midis of JW's compositions.

K.M.

[Guest]

Um.........are you justified to tell someone they "suck" or that their work is "cretinous" and "unskilled" just because you either have a bad day (or life) or actually really don't like a piece?  

If you honestly think that everything you've said in the past few days has been your "opinion", well then you most definitely deserve anything that comes to you.  

After all, it's just someone's "opinion", right?  How can you question that?  So IndySolo has the opinion that you post less-than-human messages frequently.  So he compares you to a troll.  It's his opinion and right to "dehumanize" you to a troll, just as you outright claim it is your right to "dehumanize" Fossman's hard work to something "cretinous". :roll:

I wasn't talking to you jackass. But now you have poked your nose in, yeah your music sucks like Fossmans'.

Your music stinks.

It stinks

Now piss off, amateur.

[Lurker 5]

Now play nice "AI" or I'll have to take your toys away.

Neil

[FossMan 1]

Okay... enough flaming on this thread, that's not what I established it for. AI, your opinion is noted--in fact, I would appreciate even more. Some of these folks are right in mentioning that "cretinous" and the like are poor methods of criticism. I'd like more specifics, if possible.

MSM, thanks for your feedback. I was worried that the piece might feel drawn out in the slower sections in the second half, and now you've proven I was right. Thanks for that. As for being skilled in orchestration, maybe I am, but I haven't been formally trained in that yet. Heck, I've only just finished Music Theory I. Still, I've been doing this for a while now as an amateur (ooh... I think taht should give AI some ammunition). My primary instrument is the horn, and I love accompanying it with the flute.

Thanks again, all.

[Saxman717 22]

Um.........are you justified to tell someone they "suck" or that their work is "cretinous" and "unskilled" just because you either have a bad day (or life) or actually really don't like a piece?  

If you honestly think that everything you've said in the past few days has been your "opinion", well then you most definitely deserve anything that comes to you.  

After all, it's just someone's "opinion", right?  How can you question that?  So IndySolo has the opinion that you post less-than-human messages frequently.  So he compares you to a troll.  It's his opinion and right to "dehumanize" you to a troll, just as you outright claim it is your right to "dehumanize" Fossman's hard work to something "cretinous". :roll:

I wasn't talking to you jackass. But now you have poked your nose in, yeah your music sucks like Fossmans'.

Your music stinks.

It stinks

Now piss off, amateur.

*Sniffle Sniffle* :cry: :cry:

Just because someone says something you may not like or agree with, doesn't justify devaluing that human being to the status of "Jackass", now does it? AI?

I am a person, same as you, with my own opinions, like them or not, It is my intrinsic right as a human being to have them, and state them. Most of my posts here have been relevant to JW, so how does that make me a jackass? And why do you feel justified in dehumanizing me to the status of "jackass"?

:roll:

[Hale-Bopp 0]

this is pretty sad...

i mean, is this what this board is all about? bashing?

honestly, I've seen better and more critiquing and less off-the-subject ranting on vgmusic.com which mostly consists of 13-year old gamers!

geez.

just what IS the average age of forumers here?

[Elmo Lewis 6]

You know what the sad part is? Hale-Bopp has a point.

[Saxman717 22]

hmmmm, I only hear bashing coming from AI (and maybe a slight knock about a troll).....everybody else has either not given feedback or been cool. I've been trying to guess the age of AI, but to no avail. I dunno....it just seems sort of wrong to question the maturity of all the people in the jwfan forum just 'cause of the immaturity of 1 poster.

hmhmhmmmmm

-Steve , who just got a fun idea from your post

[FossMan 1]

So... back on topic.... Saxman, you mentioned that you'd listen to the piece over this weekend. Have you yet?

[Justin 2]

FossMan this is acctually a pretty good cue. I don't understand where A.I. is comming from. Oh well. I was listening to it and my brother came over and asked what it was. He liked it.

Justin -Who'll listen to it again.

[Guest]

Ok Fossman, here's some constructive criticism/advice.

Your music isn't that bad, I understand you are about to start a composition degree or something of that nature. So props to you. I was hard on you, but one thing you should get to grips with, is that if you want to be a film composer, you need a thick skin, you should be able to handle rejection and outright negativity, because you will get a lot of it, as any composer does. As you probably know, even JW's music has been edited and altered by the powers that be, ie Attack of the Clones etc. Williams is the undisputed Master of film music, and even he has to tolerate that kind of action and insult.

Re your piece;

You might try modulating a bit sooner, rather than hovering in Bmin. Observe how Williams modulates often, even very soon in the piece (eg. Hook Prologue, modulates from Bbminor to Fmin to C#major in the space of 20 seconds) And don't just suddenly change key for variation, build up to it and hint at it, choose a key that has some common elements, anchor tones, that you can slide in to. Think in terms of two tonalities at once, You are in B minor and are aiming for, say G major. Then back to B minor or perhaps E minor. The trick is to keep the tonality somewhat ambiguous, so the listener is never quite sure what is going on. That's one reason why Williams music is riveting, as even though you know the piece, it's still fresh every listen, you are not quite sure how it goes, it's constantly surprising and unnerving. Never static.

Use First and Second chord inversions for the Bass, and try syncopating the bass line so it's not always on the beat/bar with the harmonic change.

Vary the cello/bass ostinato slightly on every reprise. Alter just one note or displace one quaver.

Use more suspensions and syncopation on the melody, stagger it slightly, don't always aim for ending on the tonic exactly on the closure of each section or phrase. Think of the melody and Bass as two parts that flow together and compliment, rather than two elements locked in sync by bar lines and linear movement.

[nja 0]

Congratulations to AI for finally approaching a professional level of dialogue although I have trouble comparing John Williams' editors with certain comments in earlier posts. Professional analysis and criticism are one thing, crude disdain, something else altogether.

In any event, I would second AI's comments in regards to variation and alteration. There were a number of points in the piece that were arguably cliched and diminished the overall progression of musical ideas.

I would encourage you to work torward more development in the melodic content of the piece. There's obviously no weakness in a melody containing sequence; most do in one form or another. It's another thing entirely for it to lack progression. It should move with some sense of purpose.

The melodic content also seemed to frequent the first five scale degrees with the accompanying harmonies reticent to venture too far from the tonic. Again, not that that's always a negative, but in this case, perhaps you could break out a little more intervallically, making your melodies progress toward climaxes and cross boundaries into new and unforeseen tonalities (as was previously suggested). Might I suggest listening to "Escape From Venice" from IJ and The Last Crusade. There are myriads of other JW examples but at least this one should be easy to get your hands on.

Your orchestration has many strengths and you have a good feel for structural progression and form. Perhaps most admirable is your willingness to subject your music to open criticism (especially considering threads like this one).

All the best.

[FossMan 1]

Now that's some constructive criticism I can appreciate. Thanks to AI and nja for your thoughts.

[StrongBad992648 0]

Actually...I'm very curious to find out what other composers think of my stuff. If you want...since I don't have a site to put my work up on...let me know who to E-Mail it to...and I will.

I'll send you September on MIDI...the piece I wrote for September 11th. And I might send you snippets of other things I'm working on. Since I'm doing the running of the competition (don't worry guys...the music will be up soon hopefully)...I don't have time to compose anything to go along with the topics. So...let me know!

[MSM 126]

I knew there was more in the guy! Well done AI!

Strongbad, I am quite interested in your music, did you receive my e-mail?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I don't think A.I. is a guy.

[Hale-Bopp 0]

A.I. is A.I.

O_o

[FossMan 1]

So, StrongBad992648, what did you think of my music?

[StrongBad992648 0]

Hey hey.

Well...I certainly wouldn't bash this work...even if I didn't like it. Remember this Fossman...some of the simplest melodies become the most memorable (Jaws). A child could have easily improvised those as well...even Spielberg thought Williams was joking when he first played it.

The main thing to remember is that music is subjective. If someone hated it...or loved it...it's still your baby. If somebody didn't "get" it...it's their loss. And even if they DID get something...but it wasn't what you meant...who cares? They pulled something from your music. After a performance of my piece, September, a woman came up to me...asked for my autograph (whenever somebody asks me for it...I get really uncomfortable to begin with.) and then told me just what she "saw" while my music was playing. Half of the thigns she told me I hadn't even thought about! But she was crying...and said it moved her...who am I to argue?

Now...on to your music...lol you probably think that whole thing was a setup so that I could begin bashing your music...well it was...JUST KIDDING!

I am a very big visual composer. Many of my works are considered "tone poems" because I like to paint a very vivid picture with every passage I write. At the very beginning of your piece...it does truly sound like "White Wolf"...but I feel it loses that quality once it starts with the heroic theme. Again...just my opinion...which might mean nothing to you. When I picture a white wolf, I see them in a snowy area, and they are running gracefully across the snow. But they are still fragile while separated from their pack...so I wouldn't make the theme as heroic.

With all of your running lines and arpeggios...I really get a sense of light snow...and fast movement...very good. I always have trouble with making fast runs sound how I want them...so power to you my friend. And...concerning counterpoint...it's your music...the only person that should tell you if it needs counterpoint is you. I'm gonig to let you in on a little secret...I have never taken a theory class in my life. Yes...I've taken many music classes...but never theory...I've never had time with my busy performance and composition deadlines. And I'll tell you another secret...a certain Wael doesn't know that stuff either...and we both write...and we both like our music...and others have enjoyed our music as well...I had to look up counterpoint in my dictionary just a month ago when it was mentioned on this board!

Keep writing...always use the right side of your brain more than the left. There are all of these mathematics involved in composition...music in general...and if you focus too much on this...I feel...that you lose some of your imagination when it comes to writing. Again...just my opinion...and a theory that has worked well for me thus far. Take care...and no matter what...KEEP WRITING! Ciao!

[FossMan 1]

Thanks for the feedback. You implied that you compose professionally, but then turned around and implied that you have no formal education in the craft. How is this possible? I keep hearing that the only way to get into music nowadays is to first have a degree in it.

[nja 0]

With no offense intended to Strongman . . . one of the natural characteristics of education is that it is difficult for one to understand its benefits until they are experienced. Of course it is true that some "highly qualified" composers couldn't write their way out of a paper bag, but as the majority of schools large enough to offer composition programs especially on the graduate level require some level of proficiency, I think those people are the exception to the rule.

In my experience (not infallible I realize) I have worked with a number of composers who possessed much writing talent but lacked a real understanding of theory, music history etc. Many times their music was good even exceptional in some ways but simply lacked a consistent level of quality and seemed to lack that final polish.

Perhaps a valid comparison would be someone who is a highly talented short story writer in areas of plot development, metaphor etc. but is constantly misspelling words and employing faulty grammatical construction.

While that writer might do some successful writing, getting some things published along the way, even sometimes surpassing the writing of someone who has better training but is a less talented author, what any English professor would recommend is for him to increase his understanding of the English language. Until he does so, he not only achieves a lower quality of art than that he is capable of, but also constantly undermines his own credibility with other writers.

I would strongly encourage you to obtain as much formal education in composition as you can possibly can. Keep writing along the way- the creation-feedback process will develop the experiential aspect of your composition skills, but the formal education will give you the tools you need to refine them.

[StrongBad992648 0]

I think you misunderstand me.

I'm not in any way saying someone shouldn't be educated in music. I just strongly feel that you shouldn't go into writing a piece of music thinking "Ooh...my counterpoint has to be "so and so" in this music."

I have a music education...and I'm taking theory next year. In no way did I "snub" theory...I just have not had a chance with it yet.

I meant that you could lose a lot of your creativity and potential of a piece if you go into it worrying if your counterpoint is going to be up to snuff in term's of somebody else's opinion. Hopefully I cleared some of the stuff up.

[FossMan 1]

That's cool, StrongBad. Thanks again for the feedback.

[Ren 75]

Well I have to say SOME of the posts in this thread have definitely been enlightening.