The J.R.R Tolkien Discussion Thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

Still the express train line seems out of place in the book

[Incanus 5,890]

Still the express train line seems out of place in the book

Yes undeniably it is an odd deviation from the norm as Tolkien usually doesn't go for the out of place idioms not belonging to the reality of the world in his language. But clearly he is still in the Hobbit storytelling mode in the 1st chapter.

[KK 3,313]

I had to go check my copy of the book to see if it was just something wrong with Stefan's copy. It is a strange line to have there. And you'd think with all the many times Tolkien rewrote the book when he started, that he would be much more into LotR mode, making it hard to miss an anachronistic line like that.

But hey, it happens.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[Incanus 5,890]

Shire itself is a sort of anachronistic setting in that it has the feel of a mid-19th century England countryside rather than being part of the more ancient Medieval outside world. I think the opening of the Lord of the Rings is certainly written on purpose with a bit of anachronistic whimsy, linking it to the Hobbit, starting off innocently enought before the darker turn in the plot and also presenting subtly the sense of isolation from the rest of the world. Shire is a sort of unique microcosm of its own, guarded and defended unbeknownst to the Hobbits, who live in a bubble of blissful ignorance of the events beyond their borders.

Why do you keep on saying "Shire" instead of "The Shire"?? It feels like you're talking about David Shire!

Thank you for that BloodBoal. I will remember this. Forever.

[KK 3,313]

Sounds like someone's plotting his vengeance...

[Incanus 5,890]

You could say The Vengeance...

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[KK 3,313]

Heard he's a nice fellow.

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

just noticed that Tolkien used an anacronistic description in An Unexpected Party. he describes the firework version of Smaug, that Gandalf sets of at the party. "The dragon passed like an express train."

unlike in The Hobbit, Tolkien avoids using anacronism in the main text of LOTR. i wonder if this was an oversight, or done on purpose to connect the early chapters to the style and prose of The Hobbit. Certainly LOTR started out as 'just' a sequel to that book.

It always bothered me, somewhat. Still, there's plenty of that stuff in The Hobbit, and I've always assumed the FOTR bit is just a last glimpse of that earlier style. Tolkien himself disliked how he emphasised the narrator by talking directly to his audience several times in The Hobbit and actually rephrased several of those bits for the revised edition - but left others untouched.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

Yeah the Golf reference in The Hobbit remains.

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

Except that makes more sense, as it makes this contributes to the idea, that this is history.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

I've started reading The Lord Of The Rings again in recent weeks. Often before going to sleep.

Right now Frodo just looked into Galadriel's mirror.

This is probably my 10th read, and still i'm amazed how thickly filled this book is with history. The feeling of a whole worlds that exist for other reasons just to feature in the plot.

LOTR is above all a tour through the rich imagination of a brilliant author.

[Wojo 2,458]

Clearly I need to reread the saga, starting with The Hobbit.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[Jilal 681]

I like his handwriting.

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

LOL ^

[Jilal 681]

No, seriously, I love it.

[Incanus 5,890]

Tolkien's hand writing is very beautiful and you can see how some of it was clearly transferred to the Elvish Tengwar letters. Or perhaps the other way around.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

He was taught the Elvish letters, by the scribes of King Turgon, when in his childhood... Indeed the childhood of Man he spend time in the realm of Gondolin.

Of what happened to that fair Kingdom. The Silmarrilion tells.

[Brónach 1,330]

Known demographics of Arda

[Incanus 5,890]

Has this been reported already?:

"New" J.R.R. Tolkien epic poem The Fall of Arthur due out next year

[Jay 46,245]

Nope, not posted here at least

Cool news!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

New?

I thought Tolkien was dead? Is this like Tupac?

The Tolkien estate hates the PJ movies, but it hasn't stopped them from trying to cash in.

[Incanus 5,890]

Well obviously Tolkien left A LOT of papers behind, enough for Christopher to publish Silmarillion, a 12 part History of Middle Earth series, The Children of Húrin, The Legend of Sigurd and Gudrún and now The Fall of Arthur plus probably a couple of things to come. I am not complaining though. More Tolkien is just good.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

Did anyone here read The Children of Hurin?

[Incanus 5,890]

Well of course! I for one!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

Any good?

[Incanus 5,890]

It is certainly worth a read although it comprises largely of materials found in Silmarillion and The Book of Unfinished Tales but does present the tale of Húrin and especially his son Túrin in a self contained story, which is one of the central ones in his First Age legendarium. Christopher Tolkien has trimmed the various variants of the story presented in Tolkien's papers into a coherent whole, which is a very pleasurable read in itself and of course the parallels to the Kullervo legend in Kalevala are fascinating to us Finns.

Alan Lee's new art work is also gorgeous.

But I admit there is a faint scent of "cashing in on Tolkien" about it.

[Brónach 1,330]

I have to read it.

[Wojo 2,458]

I own the hardback but haven't read it.

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

I've read it. As Mikko said, it's mostly stuff that's already found in Sil or UT. It's nice to have it as a full story, but while reading it, nearly everything seemed already very familiar (down to the words and phrasings).

[KK 3,313]

I've read it. Unless you're a die-hard Tolkien fan, there's no urgent need to get your hands on it as its simply an expansion of the story as told from The Silmarillion. But as others have mentioned, it is nice to have it as a self-contained story. It was one of my favourite bits from the Silmarillion.

[Brónach 1,330]

Túrim Turambar, Dagnir Glaurunga!

I barely remember anything but I do remember liking the story.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

Very epic in nature. Like a Norse sage.

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

Technically, much of it IS a Norse saga.

[Incanus 5,890]

Technically, much of it IS a Norse saga.

Don't forget the Finnish angle! Never forget the Finnish angle!!!

(And who says we Finns are greedy and desperate for mention? )

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 12,391]

Did you know Finland beat Russia in ze war?

[Brónach 1,330]

Technically, much of it IS a Norse saga.

Don't forget the Finnish angle! Never forget the Finnish angle!!!

I actually thought the same thing

I must read these, in translation at least.

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

Technically, much of it IS a Norse saga.

Don't forget the Finnish angle! Never forget the Finnish angle!!!

Well yes. "Norse" in this case should stand as a synonym for "Scandinavian" in general. After all, Sibelius already set large parts of Hurin story to music.

[Brónach 1,330]

But Norse normally refers to this.

[Jay 46,245]

Hiya gang!

I've decided I want to buy myself a copy of The Hobbit. Can anyone recommend which version I should get?

I want it to be hardcover (my copy of LOTR is hardcover), and I don't want it to be a movie-tie-in version (like with Martin Freeman on the cover or something). A bunch of illustrations by Howe and/or Lee would be awesome. I'm just confused because of you type The Hobbit into Amazon book search, there are many MANY versions to pick from! Some illustrated by Tolkien himself apparently (or are his little drawings in all versions anyway?).

The two that stand out seem to be:

The Annotated Hobbit

The Hobbit (Illustrated Edition)- By J.R.R. Tolkien (Author) & Alan Lee (Illustrator)

Any suggestions/recommendations? Really appreciated. Thanks!

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[Jay 46,245]

But does The Annotated Hobbit have all the cool Alan Lee illustrations?

[Incanus 5,890]

But does The Annotated Hobbit have all the cool Alan Lee illustrations?

If I remember correctly it doesnt' have illustration beyond Tolkien's own.

[BloodBoal 8,711]

But does The Annotated Hobbit have all the cool Alan Lee illustrations?

Just buy an Alan Lee artbook, if that's what you're looking for!

Anyway, the product description on Amazon says this:

For readers throughout the world, The Hobbit serves as an introduction to the enchanting world of Middle-earth, home of elves, wizards, dwarves, goblins, dragons, orcs and a host of other creatures depicted in The Lord of the Rings and The Silmarillion -- tales that sprang from the mind of the most beloved author of all time, J.R.R. Tolkien.

Newly expanded and completely redesigned, Douglas A. Anderson's The Annotated Hobbit is the definitive explication of the sources, characters, places, and things of J.R.R. Tolkien's timeless classic. Integrated with Anderson's notes and placed alongside the fully restored and corrected text of the original story are more than 150 illustrations showing visual interpretations of The Hobbit specific to many of the cultures that have come to know and love Tolkien's Middle-earth. Tolkien's original line drawings, maps and color paintings are also included, making this the most lavishly informative edition of The Hobbit available.

So maybe there is some Lee in there.

[Jay 46,245]

So which one should I buy then Inky?

[BloodBoal 8,711]

[Rachael Foley 10,164]

with the OUH* chapter.

*Original Unaltered Hobbit, a play of the acronym OUT, Original Unaltered Trilogy

[Marian Schedenig 11,695]

THE ANNOTATED HOBBIT IS THE ULTIMATE EDITION OF THE BOOK!

True. In the *best* meaning of the phrase.

It includes all of Tolkien's original illustrations from the first editions plus plenty of alternates and alternate covers by himself, as well as lots of illustrations by various artists for editions all over the world. As far as I recall, a Lee or two may be included.