Howard Shore's path to Lord of the Rings

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

I'm not sure where to ask this question (QQ, or some other thread) but here goes...how did HS get to "LOTR", and "The Hobbit". Usually, one can trace an arc from one piece of work to another ("The Towering Inferno"-"Jaws"-"Star Wars", for instance), but with "LOTR" I just can't see one. It seems to have come right out of the blue. Were there suggestions on other scores? I remember that "The Fly" sounds pretty operatic in places, and that "SE7EN" is a bit "heavy", but that's about it. Where did all this epic music suddenly come from?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

The fact that he wasn't given the opportunity to let it all out doesn't mean it wasn't there for all those years. He just needed the right canvas. No big mystery.

His compositional influences are an interesting subject though, if anyone wants to speculate on them.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

But it is a big mystery. If the influences were there, why were there no "apparent" hints at the sheer magnitude of "LOTR"?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Well, I'm not quite sure what you mean then.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

It's a bit John Williams (remember him?) scoring all those bright-and breezy-but-ultimately-boring glossy comedies of the 60s, only to have his next score be..."The Fury". There's no arc, no here-to-there. it might all be there, but as far as the public is concerned, nothing prepared us for "LOTR".

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Well that's exactly it, like I said. A good film composer is going to deliver what their projects demand, regardless of whatever deeper potential they have. Just gotta hope they have the chance to tap into that.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,529]

I guess so, but i just wish that there were hints at "LOTR"'s greatness.

[Incanus 5,715]

Howard Shore had a very steady career in films prior to Lord of the Rings and was doing interesting things with his music although it might have flown under the radar by the standards of big Hollywood hits. As the composer puts it, the LotR scores really required all the experience he had accumulated through the years up to that point and thus he feels it came just at the right time. His works prior to LotR films were certainly not as operatic or leitmotific for the most part but there were a few scores where he employed such a sound, The Fly, Silence of the Lambs, Looking for Richard (this in particular exhibits very LotR like choral work), Dogma etc. I think it is just another step on his career, much thanks to PJ and others for giving him the chance and challenge to which he most certainly stepped up. But no one had before asked for such a score from Shore. He had scored those Cronenberg films and often quite cerebral stuff.

PJ and especially Fran Walsh temp tracked the film (and pre-viz) with different film scores and Walsh reminisces in the Foreword of The Music of the Lord of the Rings Films how she suddenly realized that all the music they had been using was written by Howard Shore. So I guess the right feel, mood and drama were there to be found in his output.

The LotR scores are full nods to Shore's past scores, motifs, ideas, techniques and orchestrations though. The seeds are there to be heard in his past. But the progression might not be as clear as with some other composers.

[KK 3,307]

Usually, one can trace an arc from one piece of work to another ("The Towering Inferno"-"Jaws"-"Star Wars", for instance), but with "LOTR" I just can't see one.

But that's the thing, you CAN trace the arc to LotR with Howard Shore. Traces of Middle-Earth are all over in Shore's oeuvre before LOTR. You can hear the roots of the choral writing and the structural motifs in scores like The Fly, Looking for Richard, Dogma, etc. You hear how his aleatoric stylistic devices evolved from something like Naked Lunch to something as elaborate as The Cell to a very effective medium in LotR. You can even hear the harmonic language he uses in his melodicism in scores like Dead Ringers. LOTR just gave him the ultimate medium and resources to express all these facets of his compositional style at the peak of their potential. Before that, he never had an orchestra and choir of that size at his disposal, or the amount of time to delve into that level of thematic structure (which has always been a key component in his work). So in a way, his whole career has been leading to his magnum opus.

I'm always a bit confused when people say LotR is completely unlike the Shore that came before it, when really, LotR is just Shore's sound, but done louder and in a more refined way.

[Incanus 5,715]

Usually, one can trace an arc from one piece of work to another ("The Towering Inferno"-"Jaws"-"Star Wars", for instance), but with "LOTR" I just can't see one.

But that's the thing, you CAN trace the arc to LotR with Howard Shore. Traces of Middle-Earth are all over in Shore's oeuvre before LOTR. You can hear the roots of the choral writing and the structural motifs in scores like The Fly, Looking for Richard, Dogma, etc. You hear how his aleatoric stylistic devices evolved from something like Naked Lunch to something as elaborate as The Cell to a very effective medium in LotR. You can even hear the harmonic language he uses in his melodicism in scores like Dead Ringers. LOTR just gave him the ultimate medium and resources to express all these facets of his compositional style at the peak of their potential. Before that, he never had an orchestra and choir of that size at his disposal, or the amount of time to delve into that level of thematic structure (which has always been a key component in his work). So in a way, his whole career has been leading to his magnum opus.

I'm always a bit confused when people say LotR is completely unlike the Shore that came before it, when really, LotR is just Shore's sound, but done louder and in a more refined way.

Although I agree with you, you have to admit Shore succeeded in combining his own voice with highly accessible old fashioned leitmotific writing which he had not explored much in the past. He was never too keen on using big melodies to carry his music before. I am sure the films lended themselves to this treatment and the film makers pointed the way to that direction but it is uncustomarily frequent in LotR. Which does not imply that it doesn't sound like Shore, quite the contrary. It is still him through and through and that is why some people have hard time getting into these scores. They do not conform to the notion of what a Hollywood blockbuster score should sound (Shore orchestrates and writes in a patently individual fashion) yet they have now become a sort of template for the fantasy/adventure scoring for modern films.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Indeed. The musical language is very traceable. The only thing that comes out of nowhere is the marvelous thematic web that the language is spun into. But again, there are few projects that would merit such an approach.

Isn't it true that Kilar was an early choice for the trilogy? I've always thought that Shore's musical lineage is in a similar place. Some combination of Polish minimalism/neoclassicism/avant-garde, and the "New York" neoclassical sound of guys like Glass. I hear quite a bit of similarity with Shore in Glass' most recent symphonies.

[Incanus 5,715]

Indeed. The musical language is very traceable. The only thing that comes out of nowhere is the marvelous thematic web that the language is spun into. But again, there are few projects that would merit such an approach.

Isn't it true that Kilar was an early choice for the trilogy? I've always thought that Shore's musical lineage is in a similar place. Some combination of Polish minimalism/neoclassicism/avant-garde, and the "New York" neoclassical sound of guys like Glass. I hear quite a bit of similarity with Shore in Glass' most recent symphonies.

Also Basil Poledouris lobbied for the gig as well.

[KK 3,307]

Oh I definitely agree. Which is why I say LotR gave Shore the chance to refine his sound. Give it more of an emotional backbone, more accessibility, stronger melodies. A lot of it is due to the fact that the project demanded it. He's never had an outright fantasy epic to score at his disposal. And the level of time he was graciously given to commit to this allowed him to fine-tune his musical voice in a medium that could resonate with a larger crowd.

I'm not saying he had it in him to write LotR from the start. There's definitely stuff he delved into with LotR that he hasn't before, but that's all part of the learning curve. What I don't agree with is when people say "it came out of the blue". If you're actually familiar with his filmography, you'll notice there's actually a bit of a natural evolution in his sound to what we heard when the LotR films hit the big screen.

Isn't it true that Kilar was an early choice for the trilogy? I've always thought that Shore's musical lineage is in a similar place. Some combination of Polish minimalism/neoclassicism/avant-garde, and the "New York" neoclassical sound of guys like Glass. I hear quite a bit of similarity with Shore in Glass' most recent symphonies.

Well said. Surprised I don't see this pointed out often. I often hear a strong resemblance between Kilar's sound and Shore, along with other Polish composers of that movement. Along with what you mentioned, their work also sometimes borderlines spiritual minimalism (if that's a thing). Structurally they can be simple, but both composers have a knack for tapping into a very raw, primal sound. I believe that's why Shore got the gig.

In fact, sometimes I've associated Shore with Arvo Part . Not often, mind you, but sometimes I don't find the comparison too far-fetched.

[Kühni 485]

.

[Faleel 5,349]

I think a LOTR Rozsa score could have been interesting.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

It would probably have been too "familiar" if you know what I mean, not distinctive enough. Shore brought the right balance of that old school, quasi-biblical epic sound and his own more singular contemporary voice.

[Incanus 5,715]

It would probably have been too "familiar" if you know what I mean, not distinctive enough. Shore brought the right balance of that old school, quasi-biblical epic sound and his own more singular contemporary voice.

Exactly. This was one of the elements that really appealed to me from the first listen of the FotR soundtrack. It had such a distinct unique soundworld that corresponded with my own aesthetics and ideas of how Middle Earth could or should be depicted musically. I really appreciated this difference from something like say Horner or James Newton Howard, Goldsmith or Elfman or even Williams.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Yeah, that was appalling.

I mean, appealing.

[KK 3,307]

Well put Incanus. I think that's why these scores became such a success with the mainstream and film music fans. It was just such a different sound from what you were already familiar with (Williams, Horner, etc).

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Isn't it true that Kilar was an early choice for the trilogy? I've always thought that Shore's musical lineage is in a similar place. Some combination of Polish minimalism/neoclassicism/avant-garde, and the "New York" neoclassical sound of guys like Glass. I hear quite a bit of similarity with Shore in Glass' most recent symphonies.

Yes, I'd also add Gorecki and Panufnik to the Polish school bit.

I'd wish you could do this for Thomas Newman.

BTW, I like what Rosenman brought to his score. His unique combination of the expressionist grit of Berg and Sessions, the Italianate lyricism of Dallapiccola, Berio and Maderna, and the pastoral Americana of Copeland and Barber.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Goreçki is definitely part of that crew, yeah.

Newman's voice is a tough one to dissect.

I think an Alex North Tolkien score would have been very special.

[Incanus 5,715]

I think an Alex North Tolkien score would have been very special.

It could have gone either way.

[Kühni 485]

.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Goreçki

Górecki.

Wow. That's what I put, and apparently my phone autocorrected to something entirely nonsensical.

I think an Alex North Tolkien score would have been very special.

It could have gone either way.

You mean... Alex South?

[Incanus 5,715]

Exactly. Alex could have changed his surname to South if he had had a chance to score LotR. It would have been that tremendous.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Goreçki

Górecki.

Wow. That's what I put, and apparently my phone autocorrected to something entirely nonsensical!

Yeah, sure, blame it on the phone...

[gkgyver 1,645]

Who else? Peter Jackson? The weather? The jews?