SafeUnderHill

Urgh.
Over dramatic rubbish!
Really hasn't this fanboy whining gone on long enough? You guys are clearly losing perspective, and robbing yourself of the FUN of being a soundtrack collector.
Barnald's post is easily the worst of this week and therefore earns the Golden Poo Award!

Indeed!
They could have trimmed and tightened 20 minutes easily

I was thinking, I think the problem isn't that the EE of AUJ is only being extended by so little; It's that too much was left in the TE. if you had shortened the TE down from 169 minutes to 149 minutes, and now this EE was 33 minutes longer, I think both films would be much better received.

Here is my edit of The Hobbit on vimeo, as promised:

https://vimeo.com/62255763

Pass: BunniesofDoom

Disc 1 (01:9:39)

1. My Dear Frodo (Film Version) (8:53)
2. Old Friends (Microedits Restored) (6:25)
3. An Unexpected Party (Film Version) (4:08)
4. Crochet (0:39)
5. Dishes (0:22)
6. Blunt the Knives (1:01)
7. Axe or Sword (Microedits Restored) (4:29)
8. Contract/Fate (1:00)
9. Faint (0:29)
10. Deleted Cue #2 (0:41)
11. The Invention of Golf (1:01)
12. No Choice (0:51)
13. Misty Mountains (1:41)
14. The Adventure Begins (1:20)
15. Welcome to the Company (1:15)
16. Home Is Behind You (2:36)
17. Myrtle/Throat Cutters (0:27)
18. An Ancient Enemy (Microedit Restored) (5:28)
19. Five Wizards (0:38)
20. Radagast The Brown (Film Version) (4:47)
21. Gandalf Leaves (0:35)
22. The Trollshaws (2:09)
23. Roast Mutton (Full Version) (6:09)
24. Stone Trolls (0:17)
25. A Troll-Hoard (2:38)
26. The Hill of Sorcery (3:51)
27. Gundabad Wargs (1:22)
28. Rhosgobel Rabbits (2:04)
29. Run!/Elf Hunters (2:23)

(Temporary Youtube Video)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LRWV0cvPz4I

Disc 2 (02:50:55)

1. The Hidden Valley (3:49)
2. Moon Runes (3:21)
3. The Defiler (1:14)
4. The White Council (9:42)
5. Over Hill (3:43)
6. A Thunder Battle (Microedit Restored) (4:18)
7. The Edge of the Wild (Unused) (3:38)
8. Bilbo Packs/Homesick/We Don't Belong Here (1:54)
9. Captured (Long Version) (1:03)
10. Bilbo Vs. The Orc (0:45)
11. Goblintown (1:05)
12. Look Who It Is (1:43)
13. Gollum (1:08)
14. The Ring (0:39)
15. Boat (0:36)
16. Riddles in the Dark (Film Version) (8:49)
17. Brass Buttons (Film Version) (7:28)
18. Home (0:23)
19. Up Into The Trees (2:23)
20. It Cannot Be (4:51)
21. Eagle Rescue (Rip With Mockup) (3:17)
22. A Good Omen (Film Version) (4:47)
23. Song of the Lonely Mountain/End Credits (10:10)
24. Dreaming of Bag End (1:49)
25. A Very Respectable Hobbit (Exclusive Bonus Track) (1:20)
26. Erebor (Exclusive Bonus Track) (1:17)
27. The Dwarf Lords (Exclusive Bonus Track) (2:00)
28. The Hobbit Trailer Music (2:28)
29. My Dear Frodo (8:02)
30. An Unexpected Party (Film Version) (1:44)
31. Unknown Cue (0:24)
32. The Invention of Golf (Alternate) (1:23)
33. The Adventure Begins (Alternate) (2:05)
34. Welcome to the Company/Home Is Behind You (Alternate) (2:21)
35. Radagast The Brown (Alternate) (0:43)
36. Radagast The Brown (Alternate 2) (6:38)
37. Roast Mutton (Alternate) (4:58)
38. Moon Runes (Alternate) (0:54)
39. The Valley of Imladris (Source) (1:38)
40. Over Hill (Gandalf and Galadriel Insert) (1:18)
41. Captured (Short Version) (0:51)
42. Riddles in the Dark (5:22)
43. Brass Buttons (Alternate) (7:48)
44. Out of the Frying-Pan (5:54)
45. Eagle Rescue (3:09)
46. A Good Omen (5:46)

https://vimeo.com/62264525

Pass: BunniesofDoom

Disc 2 (Part 2: 20:20)

47. Song of the Lonely Mountain (Instrumental) (4:43)
48. Song of the Lonely Mountain (Instrumental 2) (4:50)
49. Song of the Lonely Mountain/End Credits (4:41)
50. Song of the Lonely Mountain (Alternate Extended Version) (6:03)

Total Time: 04:34

Can't we blame PJ? Or Lucas?

I'm very glad I found this thread - I've been looking for a place to discuss The Hobbit's score after seeing the movie twice, and reading the posts here it seems a lot of you shared my reaction to it.
I walked away from my first viewing pretty disappointed with the score - with the exception of the Misty Mountains theme, which was great, the only cues I easily recalled were the parts recycled from LotR. The usage of A Hobbit's Understanding, the Nazgul, and Gondor Reborn brought to mind the way LotR video games treat the score. There's no perceived need for the developers to arrange any music of their own since the movies' scores already exist, so they just stitch together and loop the film scores based almost purely on effect rather than theme. Is there a battle in this level? Cue the Isengard or Ringwraith music, that'll get the player's blood pumping!!
So I came to this forum wanting to rant a bit about stuff like that, but I saw KK.'s rant a few pages back and I think he covered pretty much all the points I wanted to make and then some. And now that I've started scrutinizing the score more closely, there are two particular pieces of it that I want to analyze and defend: the use of Gandalf's Farewells and The Nazgul theme.
To me, Gandalf's Farewell's doesn't actually seem to belong to Gandalf - rather it feels like the music is conveying how the hobbits feel about losing Gandalf in Moria, especially when we get that lengthy shot of Frodo's face looking back at Aragorn. The theme seems to suggest Frodo's realization that Gandalf was not actually beyond the reach of death, though he seemed like he'd be around forever.
When we hear the theme again in The Crack of Doom it also comes from the hobbits' perspective, as Frodo and Sam recognize that their long journey is at last over and there is nothing left but death. It is that same feeling of realization that life is not forever.
I think the first time we hear this theme is in Very Old Friends at 1:42, when Bilbo says, "I'm old, Gandalf" and talks about butter scraped across too much bread. There is a note of uncertainty that breaks from the theme when Gandalf notices Bilbo clutching the ring in his pocket.
Tolkien has said that LotR "is about Death and the desire for deathlessness." "It is mainly concerned with Death, and Immortality; and the 'escapes': serial longevity, and hoarding memory" and I think Gandalf's Farewells is meant to convey the necessity and inevitability of death - it's a very sad and haunting theme but it is also beautiful, and especially at Mount Doom there is even a sense of peace and acceptance in it. The tension and anxiety only invades the theme when Bilbo is clutching the ring, a means of escaping death.
In The Hobbit, this theme is used to convey Bilbo's recognition that his journey is ending. "I'm old now, Frodo. I'm not the same hobbit I once was," he says, mirroring what he admits to Gandalf in FotR. He looks longingly at a drawing of his younger self. He wants to reach for Sting, but he grabs a book instead - he wants to relive his life, but he records it instead, letting go.
Gandalf's Farewells theme is perhaps about Death and the desire for deathlessness, and I feel it is a fitting and beautiful way to bookend these films.
Yeah, this is the big one. I was very startled when I heard it, and thought for a moment that this might be when the soundtrack jumps the shark and begins chucking in old themes in any context without pretense.
However, just days before seeing the movie I had been reading up on some lyrics translations for the LotR music. I quickly noticed that these were not the typical Nazgul lyrics, which say something like "We renounce our Maker. We are the Nine." I'm curious what these new lyrics translate to - they might do the job of explaining and justifying the theme's use for us.
But I think there are enough hints for me to explain the connection already. First, the music's attention is focused on Thorin, rather than Azog. The Nazgul theme is revealed very dramatically while our eyes are held squarely on Thorin.
The tone of the opening notes of the Nazgul theme is also different from what we are used to. It reminds me of how Gandalf the White's theme functions as a restoration of Isengard's theme. I believe Shore could be using this as a foundation for the Nazgul theme, creating two sides to it as he did for the two White Wizards. Except this music isn't a restoration of the Nazgul theme, but rather a herald of it.
During the opening of The Hobbit, we were introduced to a great king of dwarves. Surrounded by gold and treasure, he succumbed to a sickness of the mind. When Erebor fell, Bilbo tells us ominously that he never forgave, and he never forgot.
Aragorn gave us this description of the Nazgul: "They were once men. Great kings of men. Then Sauron the Deceiver gave to them nine rings of power. Blinded by their greed, they took them without question, one by one fallen into darkness... They will never stop hunting you."
The appearance of the Nazgul's theme in The Hobbit presents us with the image of Thorin as a great king poised to fall into darkness. Bilbo, Gandalf and Balin watch him with dread, Azog with eagerness, because they see at that moment that he has a sickness of the mind. He will never forgive or forget, and he will never stop hunting those who stole from him. He is becoming a slave to his obsession, like the Nazgul. Howard Shore is using this moment to reveal the origins of the Nazgul theme by connecting their story to Thorin's.

Soon you will enjoy reading it to the offspringses.
Like Alice my second viewing in 2D clinched it. The "weirdness" was gone.

I saw it again.. in good ol' fashioned 2D . definitely didn't hate it... in fact, I enjoyed it quite a bit.

Twice. Went again with brother, uncle and grand dad.
They thought it was better than the book

Did you see it once?
The movie really only started to work for me the second time.

I still think the tracking really isn't THAT bad.
Ive seen the film 3 times now, and while at some points it's noticeable... It's not distracting apart from the Nazgul theme.

If you cant hear development in LOTR, you need to listen a bit more carefully. There is no other film score (possibly no other music of any genre) so intricately woven with such attention to leitmotivic detail and structure.
If you would have put the Fellowship theme in the hobbit, Im glad you didnt score the film! Im sure the thought never even crossed Shores mind. In my personal opinion, his setting of the misty mountains melody is even more exciting and memorable than the Fellowship theme from LOTR.

Ditto.
So you think that The Fellowship of the Ring Theme would be entirely appropriate for a movie that doesn't have anything to do with Fellowship of the Ring in any form as it has not been formed yet? Are you actually suggesting that Shore should have just gone with a theme inappropriate for the Hobbit because it is cool and memorable?
You may of course dislike the music but do not insult the composer by suggesting that did not have respect for the subject matter. Do you even know how much work and detail is found in the LotR scores and also in the first Hobbit score, which basically continues in the same style and musical architecture? Personal preference is one thing but making such broad accusations as the composer being disrespectful to the subject matter and the score lacking in musical progression, shows a serious lack of knowledge of this music.

Oh I wasn't pressuring him. I never meant to say anything against him.
This has nothing to do with Doug. I have the utmost respect for him.
This has to do with how the music turned out in the end. I don't care if Jackson is to blame or Shore is to blame, but there were problems which I hope shall not continue in the upcoming scores.
Poor Doug can't say anything against the director and composer. And I'm sure if he read this, he'd probably say I was all wrong. But I just wanted to express my theory. That not everything in Middle-Earth was perfect for Shore this time around (as much as we'd like it to be).

Many of you know I am one of the most enthusiastic fans of Howard shore here (cue in BloodBoal’s mockery) and his magnum opus, The Lord of the Rings. So when I finally got my hands on the score, I pretty much squealed like a girl. Over the course of the last few months, listening to and analyzing the score (you can read my review/analysis through the link in my signature) has been a true pleasure. To get to the chance to explore the same density of LotR is always a wonderful exercise. I’ve always loved how meticulously Shore used the technique of leitmotif with thematic integrity unparalleled by any franchise and composer (that includes John Williams – ex. Leia theme in Ben Kenobi’s Death – ).
So you can imagine some of my displeasure at hearing the score in film. But even with that, I seemed content to believe that Jackson is to blame and I could always listen to Shore’s original intentions on album. I was satisfied.
But last week, I felt like listening to the beautiful music for the Flight to the Carrock and was pleased to discover that the scene was in youtube. Of course, upon listening to the clip, I heard strange echoes that seemed a bit unsettling (and I see some of you have already begun to pick up on it).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iZ7T7O46zyA
The scene opens up with beautiful statements of the Nature’s Reclamation theme followed by action music and then the wonderful Carrock material at 2:15 (beautifully shot scene too). But 0:17 – 1:42 sounds suspiciously familiar. And I was saddened to realize that it was nothing more than a carbon copy of “Theoden Rides Forth”, slightly adjusted to fit the picture. Search your heart, you know it to be true. 0:17 – 0:41 follows Ben Del Maestro’s solo at 1:13 in “Theoden Rides Forth”, but replaces the main melody with the Nature’s Reclamation theme. This can be heard by the same use of the appregio figures and alike orchestrations. 0:42 continues this temp-track love by copying and pasting the soaring statement of the Gandalf the White theme at 1:42 in “Theoden Rides Forth”. But Shore doesn’t want to get in trouble with his fans so he slightly tweaks the ending phrase of the theme to avoid any accusations of misplaced themes (too bad they come later!). Of course that’s not fooling anyone. And then 1:05 – 1:42 is a slightly less impressive regurgitation of the action material that follows in “Theoden Rides Forth”. I mean it’s the exact same thing, except lacking on a bit of the robust style and it’s presented with slightly different orchestrations. It’s as if Shore literally took the score for “Theoden Rides forth”, took out the themes that don’t belong, timed it to the picture and pasted it on the scene.
It broke my heart to hear this level of temp-track love. I just didn’t expect it from someone like Shore. And it got me thinking about all the curious decisions on film, because this is not the only case where the past comes to haunt the composer’s work in film, although this may be the worst case of self-plagiarism. What’s my theory? Well, Shore must have been short on time, with the last minute changes and all, making it hard for him to finish scoring the picture, resulting to cheap temp-track (of his own work) imitations. This seems like the only logical explanation to me for this scene, and that certainly doesn’t make me happy about it.
The following is more a compilation of certain peculiar observations about the score in film rather than a focused rant. But it all is meant to point to the sense of tracking, the lack of variation in parts and the curious direction that Shore’s firm sense of thematic integrity took at times.
A HOBBIT’S UNDERSTANDING
One of the most beloved themes crafted in Shore’s canvas (at least in my opinion). I recall when The Hobbit samples came out, I loved the musical nod. I still do as heard in “The Hill of Sorcery”, but unfortunately, I wasn’t too pleased with it in film.
Off the top of my head, the theme appears at least 3 times in film. Once during the troll-hoard scene, the other time tracked into the Gollum scene. The third time was bits of “The Breaking of the Fellowship” tracked into the conversation scene between Galadriel and Gandalf.
I can’t argue that the theme doesn’t make sense in all of those scenes, because at times it does. In particular, drawing parallels between the Gollum scene and the troll-hoard scene through this thematic mechanism in theory is actually an intelligent concept. So what exactly is my problem? Am I just a spoiled fanboy brat who can’t be pleased? Well, I’m sure some will vouch for that (again, cue in BloodBoal mockery), I think it can be summed up in 2 things.

1) There is a lack of variation in the statements. Two of the three statements are exactly the same while the other one is directly ripped out of FotR. There is no new take on the theme in terms of orchestration, melodic structure or anything. And with Shore’s clear ability to twist his themes (look at what he did with the Ring theme in “Riddles in the Dark” or Nature’s Reclamation in “Out of the Frying Pan”) it could certainly have been done. It’s strange that the theme shows up 4 times in FotR and about 3 times here, and yet it never overstayed its welcome in LotR. Probably because Shore created variations of the theme. Their appearances also felt natural and a small part of the bigger picture. It’s not the case here.
2) The content to which the theme acts as the underscore is not even nearly as emotionally engaging as it was in FotR. I mean, Frodo’s speech with Gandalf in Moria? Sam rushing to join Frodo as he departs? That’s all powerful stuff. But here, we have Gandalf’s silly musings with a supposedly holographic Galadriel, and him not telling Bilbo to kill people. That’s fine and all, but doesn’t nearly portray the gravity the music seems to imply. And it’s important to remember that many people are still very fond of the tear-jerking moments that this theme supported in LotR. Seeing it applied here just feels forced and emotionally manipulativeRADAGAST THE BROWN
This one is a more minor complaint really. I was always a bit bothered by the cutting of the fiddle material. While the music that replaced it was nice enough, I felt Shore’s original intentions were spot on. It would have fit the mood of the scene perfectly. Now this may be just be my personal love for this music speaking, but I’d love to see someone track the cue over the scene.
Another point of Radagast’s ventures at which I was dismayed was his exploration of Dol Goldur. The music which actually accompanied the attack of the Witch-King in film (in Casper-ghost form of course) was a rather dull alternative. I prefer the more dissonant music from the album and the statement of Sauron’s theme. Granted that Jackson might be trying to keep any hints of Sauron at bay (which isn’t much of a secret anyways) and the pacing of the scene, the cut-job of the cue is still rather awkward. The action music should have started as soon as the bats started chasing Radagast instead of the delay.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pi4j6xnoOaA
RIDDLES IN THE DARK
One of the more unfortunate treatments of Shore’s theme. On album, the cue is filled with great variations of past themes which would have been interesting to hear it in context. Some of it did make it through, but most of it was hacked in favour of “Lost in Emyn Muil” and stock renditions of the History of the Ring theme and Gollum’s Menace. The latter was especially stated repeatedly to fill the scene with stock music. Perhaps what was more frustrating was that the portions album material that made it on to the scene had many of the thematic bits left out. For instance, when Gollum realizes that he lost the ring, the music from 2:34 in “Riddles in the Dark” plays, except with only the underlying pulsing chords. No ring theme to be heard. I can’t understand that being Shore’s conscious decision. There must have been a third party that told him that they’ve heard enough of the ring theme, or that they don’t want the classic theme to be toyed with musically. A real shame because again, it would have been great to hear that all in context.
Old friends we don’t need to see…
It’s wonderful to hear how Shore treats all the old themes, but there are certain themes that make a strange return. And you all know which ones I’m talking about. Gandalf’s Farewells, the Nazgul Theme and Gondor Reborn are strangely reeled back into Middle-Earth, but in places where they don’t belong.
Gandalf’s Farewells plays as Ian Holm scurries around. It is presented very similarly to how it was in “The Grey Havens” with a slightly altered counter-melodic line. I always associated Gandalf’s Farewells with the emotion of saying good-bye, so I was never very strict about it having to be associated with Gandalf (although all its appearances in LotR could be reasonably explained). It doesn’t make much sense to put the theme here, but emotionally it doesn’t do much harm. Be that as it may, it is a sign of something that worries me.
Some will argue the Lorien theme also didn’t belong at the end of “Warg-Scouts”. Others will reason Elrond’s company were Lorien elves (one can assume Lorien elves accompanied Galadriel to Rivendell), but I suppose it might seem a bit far-fetched. The Rivendell theme doesn’t make much sense as action music though, but this is yet another example of throwing past themes around a bit loosely.
Then there’s the big fish, the Nazgul theme. We’ve already discussed to death, so I don’t think I need to go too much in depth. Doug says there’s a connection, and I’m sure he will present some sort of connection but I’m sure there many other better options out there for themes. There was no sense of development to that theme, making is appearance seem incredibly abrupt. And the use of the Footsteps of Doom End Cap does seem a bit overwrought, especially at 1:47. I do like the music the melancholic music that precedes that and the choral material that follows though (with the exception of the Misty Mountains theme).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxfLU17fGsA
The Gondor Theme is perhaps an even stranger curiosity, because for this one, Doug seems to have no other explanation other than something along the lines of “sometimes leitmotivic purposes get shifted around”. THIS is what bothers me…GREATLY. Doug said in the recent Tracksounds podcast that the way he looks at the score is that in this bookend story, the themes are likely going to get shifted around in terms of purpose (likely based on the emotional value and demands of the scene).
I personally can’t take that. Shore’s sense of thematic writing and integrity in LotR is something he’s worked on for years, meticulously following his detailed grand scheme for every note. It’s something I’ve always admired, and something that’s inspired me as a composer myself. I’ve always thought that Shore’s work demonstrates how themes should be handled in great works. It’s what I’ve often used to compare my own compositions and others’ as the benchmark to reach. So you can imagine my frustration to learn he’s essentially going to discredit all that work by bringing back all sorts of old themes for all sorts of vague emotional connections. Some might accept that the Gondor Reborn theme has been re-adjusted to befit the sense of camaraderie or such. Well I say that’s just plain lazy! Why not just write a new theme? Why not write new music?! Bringing back old themes for new ideas seems like a cheap way to get out of painting a new canvas. I love thematic connections to Shore’s original work, and I love how he’s maintaining his new music to his roots. I encourage it with all my heart. But reassigning leitmotifs is just not something I can find myself accepting.
Now I know I’m being incredibly presumptuous (as most of this post really is), but perhaps some of these curious moments (like the Gondor Reborn theme) may have been temp-tracked into the scenes and Shore under pressure and lack of time decided to integrate those moments into the new score. Regardless of what or who is responsible for the final product in film, it doesn’t seem like the same great care that was taken with LotR, was taken here.
Before all of you run at me to bash my skull against the wall, I reiterate that I am one of the biggest Shore nuts out there. And I am still deeply in love with this score. And I still believe it’s the most intelligent and strongest score of the year. It’s incredibly dense and well-crafted and I can’t wait to hear what he comes up with the next two films. I also love how Shore handles the old material (that statement of the Witch-King theme in “The Edge of the Wild” still sends the chills down my spine) and I think my review below attests to that. It’s just in film, I was saddened to notice some of these “slip-ups”, regardless of whether they fall under the jurisdiction of Jackson or Shore.
I apologize for the size of the rant. Looking back, I’m pretty sure I’ve been nitpicking, but hey, what are JWFanners for?

Please let it be the "ringwraith" version. I love it to bits!

Your feelings serve you well ... I can't answer that! Sorry!
D

Indeed the way the perspective is changed in the film in comparison with the version on the OST, as I said before, the moment becomes oddly reversed. The active party in the scene is Thorin, he is attacking. Shore's original approach really took that as the starting point it seems and the Dwarven music is heroic and courageous. In the film the Ringwraith theme does indeed illustrate the dire straits, the fatality of the attack and the power of the enemy but when Thorin is in focus the whole time, it somehow makes the musico-dramatic scenario feel askew. At least to me.And as said by Doug above, the music does follow another dramatic thread, the villain, through the film. There is this logic behind it and the film makers and Shore look at the scene from that angle. To some people this works, to some it doesn't. Personal perspectives.

Again, that's entirely subjective, so I certainly won't argue your opinion. However, it's worth noting that this sequence begins with the Descending Thirds motif, which has been presented in a sort of devolved variation upon almost every appearance of Azog. The fight with Thorin is very much the culmination of a compositional thread that has been running throughout the full score. Obviously this doesn't make it better or worse, but it's important to note that there is, in fact, a dramatic through line.
D

It's not "the explanation," it's just another example of how the music of Mordor (or variations) is consistently assigned to the Orcs in this score. Love it or hate it, the finale is very much in keeping with the pervading approaching.
D