Scoring Question

[Goldsmithfan 6]

I was just listening to the alternate version of Spock's Arrival from TMP when I realized that the arrangement of the main theme that was intended for the approach of his shuttle was used in Star Trek V for the 'Spacedock' section of the unreleased cue Paradise Lost/Spacedock.

This reminds me of something I was going to post a while ago, but never got around to.

When composers quote themselves in a nostalgic fashion (Clash of the Lightsabers in Revenge of the Sith; the original Enterprise fanfare in Nemes) how do they go about remembering exactly which material they want to reinsert. I mean, there were nearly twenty five years between TMP and Nemesis and Goldsmith did a good job of bringing back the material from The Enterprise. The stats were the same for the time lapse between The Empire Strikes Back and Revenge of the Sith. So how exactly do they come about with the idea of going back to one specific part of a score and using it in a sequel. I guess I'm trying to ask how they remember that specific bit from something they've written a quarter of a century ago.

Unless . . . ! The director requests it or something.

In any case, it's always nice to get a little wink from a composer to let us know our attention matters. Either that or it's just something they get a kick out of whether or not we care.

I'll say it's the latter.

[Datameister 2,095]

I'd imagine it's sometimes the director's request. But I'd like to think that most film composers have at least a dim recollection of even the things they wrote decades ago. And they must have access to recordings and scores, anyhow...it's their work, after all. Maybe I'm just in denial over the fact that some of John Williams' fans may know his music better than he himself does.

[Henry B 50]

"Sweet Jesus! 'Not if anything to say about it I have'? I can't score this shit. I'm a composer, not a... arrghh! Somebody get me the score to The Empire Strikes Back. Oh, man. It's all coming back now. 'No, Luke. I am your father.' Zing! That's dialogue I could write a tune to."

[Trent B 337]

The cue that's used for the Spacedock cue in Star Trek V does sound similar to the early version of "Spock's Arrival" however they are a bit different. There's some extra notes that were played towards the endo f the cue that's not on the early version for "Spock's Arrival". If you watch that scene in Star Trek V and pay real close attention to the music you'll know what I mean.

Edit: The one used in Star Trek V is most likely just a reprise as I said with a different ending.

[Ollie 1,069]

Maybe Goldsmith knew this would be his final ST film and wanted to tie them together musically because there are other little nods thru out the score.

I'm sure there are moments from early works a composer may want to re-visit or feel they might work plus they may keep ideas that were rejected or not used and apply them to another project.

[orrakul 0]

Sometimes, it's easier for a composer to revisit a previous score - or a director might ask for this. But, don't discount the decisions made by music editors on feature films. It's cheaper/easier to go back to tracks recorded for a previous film (such as an alternate take which weren't used before) than it is to record new score tracks.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

I'm pretty sure the ESB insert was a director's request. It even features the swirling strings that score the wind blowing out the window in ESB so perfectly. It makes absolutely no sense to be in RotS. I doubt Williams would choose on his own accord to re-hash inappropriate material rather than compose something original.

[Ollie 1,069]

Especially since most of it covers Yoda and The Emperor's fight.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Goldsmith certainly remembers The Enterprise, since he has performed it in concerts and has told the anacdote about how director Robert Wise rejected his initial version of this cue is many...many interviews.

[Olivier 5]

I suppose they do have some recollection of several themes and motifs they have written, because they have a good memory, or they liked them, or they had a hard time writing them, or they are associated with some personal anecdote, or they were surprised such and such thing was so successful, or they have rehearsed and re-arranged and conducted them in concert hundreds of times, ...

Or they might jsut go through old notes.

I remember reading Goldsmith had an excellent memory of things he had written decades earlier, as people discussing them with him found out.

[Goldsmithfan 6]

Thanks for the input. I pretty much agree with everything that was said. In hindsight, my question was probably kind of dimwitted. I mean, if I scored a film, I'd probably remember each cue very well. Each one is a work of art.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No I really doubt that.

People with a career as long as Williams or Goldsmith have written many thousands of cues.

It would be impossible to remember them all.

Also Williams doesn't listen to his old stuff very much.

Goldsmith probably didn't either.

[orrakul 0]

It was not a dimwitted question. But, Steef's correct (as usual) - it's just a 4 month gig for many composers and then they move on; it's geeks like us who disect the scores, and look at similarities from score to score. The same brain writing a score in a high-pressure environment might fall back into a familiar pattern of thought (and re-work a theme from a previous score).