Return of the Jedi

[tpigeon 3]

i have noticed since the first day i joined this board that Return of the Jedi is not a very liked score. and i was curious to hear the opinions of all of you, so i created this thread to be dedicated to it, since it is rarely discussed.

ROTJ was my very first score on CD that i got a long time ago, and was my introduction to listening to film scores outside the film. so, naturally, i am kind of attached to it.

what i like about it is that though it is thematically loyal, it does different things with the themes and is a good collection of all the themes i think. sometimes, the themes are overt and prominent, but many of the renditions of them are subtle. this is mostly true of the first disc. for example, i think track 8, "The Emperor Arrives/Death of Yoda/Obi-Wan's revelation," is a phenomenal track for its quiet, yet very effective atmosphere.

in relation to that, there is a lot of underscore in ROTJ, more than in the other two in my opinion. ESB had a good amount, but not as much as this one i think. and i really like good underscore. with ROTJ, i think Williams proved that a Star Wars didn't have to be loud to be effective.

what are your thoughts?

tpigeon- who notices a huge decline in sound quality with this score

[Trumpeteer 302]

It's a great score! Sorry that I never chimed in with that opinion before.

One of my favorite themes is the Emperor's theme. It truly is dark and foreboding. That male chorus is always creepy.

As far as individual cues, I enjoy the "Attack on the Sail Barge" and the truly moving cue where Luke and Vader battle for the last time.

I think the opening sequences in Jabba's palace aren't that exciting, but I still enjoy listening to that synth as Luke enters the lair, with the massive door opening and that Jedi hood. Goosebumps.

Score gets a 9 out of 10. "Star Wars" and "The Empire Strikes Back" get perfect 10s. The prequel scores get 7 out of 10.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

i have noticed since the first day i joined this board that Return of the Jedi is not a very liked score

It isn't? :wow: Well, it should be. The Dark Side Beckons is one of the most amazing pieces of music ever!

tpigeon- who notices a huge decline in sound quality with this score

Well, ANH and ESB don't really sound very good. ROTJ sounds a lot better on the Anthology set than on the SE.

[tpigeon 3]

One of my favorite themes is the Emperor's theme. It truly is dark and foreboding. That male chorus is always creepy.

As far as individual cues, I enjoy the "Attack on the Sail Barge" and the truly moving cue where Luke and Vader battle for the last time.

yeah, that emperor's theme is so dark and effective. i love the very end of the Sail Barge Assault, when the Sail Barge is exploding while they are flying away. that sends chills down my spin every time! and when Luke is dueling Vader, i love the segment at the five minute mark, with the small male chorus. it's reflective of the score i think. it is very moving, but not in an overpowering way. it is still so poetic though. that's what i think it so unique about it.

[tpigeon 3]

Well, ANH and ESB don't really sound very good. ROTJ sounds a lot better on the Anthology set than on the SE.

yeah, i have the Special Editions

[tpigeon 3]

It isn't?  :wow: Well, it should be. The Dark Side Beckons is one of the most amazing pieces of music ever!

well, people talk down on it a lot when talking about the brilliance of the first two. i think people like it, they just don't think it's up to par with Star Wars and Empire

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Those people are stupid, and tone deaf.

Stefancos- who thinks ROTJ is up to par with SW and TESB and better then TPM and AOTC.

[tpigeon 3]

Stefancos- who thinks ROTJ is up to par with SW and TESB and better then TPM and AOTC.

agreed!

[Gamecube 0]

I never try to decide between ANH, ESB and ROTJ. I like them all a lot. Return of the Jedi is a great score, and everyone should get it. But it does however, sound different than ESB and ANH, in ways I can't describe. Maybe someone else can help me with that.

[tpigeon 3]

as i said, i just think it is a lot quieter than the other two. it's subtle, but still just as effective. but yes, i see what you're talking about. there's definitely something i can't put my finger on either. this one i think is definitely the different one out of the three.

[Ollie 1,059]

I love ROTJ. I think most people's objection is to the film. The remastering of the score isn't as good as the other two but Williams delivered with this one.

[The Five Tones 302]

Into The Trap is a fantastic little cue, especially when its 2nd motif is heard a tutti. That is the high point of the score for me next to the male chorus in the The Dark Side Beckons. Attack on the Sail Barge also has a great ending.

Luke and Leia is one of JW's most musically sophisticated themes. I loved it when I first heard it on my grandma's ancient, portable turntable back in '83 (I still can smell the overheating wiring) and it has brought me to tears at least once in the last couple of years.

Unfortunately, I had to take big points off not only for the abominations Lapti Nek and the Ewok Celebration (Jedi Rocks and the world music version of the celebration on the SE are even more embarrassing), but for what was then unthinkable to me: the cannibalizing of music from ANH, particularly Tie Fighter Attack and The Battle of Yavin for use in Sail Barge Attack. Even worse was the tracking of Rescue from Cloud City from ESB in the film when the second Death Star is destroyed.

I think the change in sound quality is mainly due to the fact that the ROTJ recording is much more ambient (more naturally reverberant) like a classical recording. The closely-miked instruments heard in ANH and ESB made for a lot of page-turning, music-stand clicking noise, and a overall dry sound, but they were much punchier, forward recordings, particularly with the brass and the bass.

ROTJ doesn't make my top ten JW scores list, but it does get an honourable mention along with Dracula.

[QuintBrody 0]

Return of the Jedi is awesome! Williams was still writing at the top of his game. Not one weak cue in there, not even Lapti Nek!

[UCFKevin 0]

Hell, I think it's my favorite SW score! I dunno where you got the idea that people hated it. Well, maybe some here do, but I certainly don't. I think it's absolutely brilliant, one of William's best ever. The Dark Side Beckons, The Final Duel, The Emperor's Death, Vader's Death, Yoda's Death, Into the Trap, The Sail Barge Attack......it's all Star Wars to the extreme. EXCELLENT score.

[Justin 2]

I was just listening to this score this afternoon and I love every second of it. From the light and fluffy Parade of the Ewoks to the soft and beautiful Luke and Leia to the dark underscore of Father and Son this is truly a Star Wars classic.

Some of my favorite cues are Sail Barge Assault the finale is one of Williams greatest moments in history. Also the furious brass of Speeder Chase. Plus smaller Gems such as The Levitation and Theepio's Bedtime Story. Or some of Williams best material of the Trilogy, Into the Trap, Luke and Vader?s Duel, The Emperor's Death, and Vader's Death. And then who can forget the rhythmic finale.

Justin -Who loves this score!

[scissorhands 16]

Some of my favorite cues are Sail Barge Assault the finale is one of Williams greatest moments in history.

Sail Barge Assault...... it's fantastic. And we have an alternate version of it. That uplifting finale......Yes!

I also like the first part of BATTLE OF ENDOR I, Parade of the Ewoks, The Ewok Battle and its concert version, The Forest Battle (the best track in the score).

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

The original version of Light of the Force is awesome, they should never have changed that. And I love the Gerhardt recording of the Ewok celebration music, it's purely instrumental.

[UCFKevin 0]

Justin, there's no music during the speeder chase...

The alternate version of Light of the Force is one of the most incredible pieces ever written, not just by Williams, but by anyone, ever. It's just so powerful.

[Lurker 5]

There is music leading up to the speeder bike chase, and it's very exciting music, at that. I couldn't wait to hear that back in 1997 when the SE's were finally released.

The score to Jedi is indeed very good and far better than the film.

Neil

[Beowulf 4]

I also love the score to ROTJ...probably because it was the first JW experience I ever had. The Dark Side Beakons is definitely one of JW's finest musical moments.

And oh by the way...the scores to the prequels were fine. I suppose it will just take a few years for you cynics to realize it.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

And oh by the way...the scores to the prequels were fine.  I suppose it will just take a few years for you cynics to realize it.

Ray Barnsbury

[AHerrera83 0]

The scores to the prequels are fine, with some great cues, and compared to other current scores, they're outstanding. But unfortunately, the original trilogy was on a league of its own, so if you see all five as part of a whole, they don't really measure up.

[Morn 8]

Return of the Jedi is utterly brilliant! Williams 2nd best score! Mostly thanks to the Endor battle.

Unfortunately, I had to take big points off not only for the abominations Lapti Nek and the Ewok Celebration (Jedi Rocks and the world music version of the celebration on the SE are even more embarrassing)

I like em.

but for what was then unthinkable to me: the cannibalizing of music from ANH, particularly Tie Fighter Attack and The Battle of Yavin for use in Sail Barge Attack.

Hey, ROTJ is Star Wars. I don't see the problem is reusing ANH music. It already uses it's themes.

Even worse was the tracking of Rescue from Cloud City from ESB in the film when the second Death Star is destroyed.

That has nothing to do with the score, only how it was edited.

The closely-miked instruments heard in ANH and ESB made for a lot of page-turning, music-stand clicking noise, and a overall dry sound, but they were much punchier, forward recordings, particularly with the brass and the bass.

I love close miking.

[Justin 2]

There is music leading up to the speeder bike chase, and it's very exciting music, at that.  I couldn't wait to hear that back in 1997 when the SE's were finally released.

That's what I meant.

The score to Jedi is indeed very good and far better than the film.

No comment.

Justin

[Figo 2]

Once again, I find myself agreeing with a good many of fivetones' comments. In particular, I like Into the Trap, The Dark Side Beckons, and the coda to the sail barge fight (the only good part of that cue). And Luke and Leia puts the love theme from AOTC to shame, as far as genuine sincerity of expression is concerned. At least, that's how it feels to me. Of course, like the other Old Timers, I have lots of extramusical associations tied up with it. That's what happens when you get old (at 36). You start to associate music with the smell of vinyl with your grandparents' house with your friends or even some cloud formations you viewed on a particular day. Sometimes I really don't understand the function of nostalgia. It really serves no positive purpose.

But I digress.

I find it curious, tpigeon, that you would be moaning in another thread about the inclusion of Anything Goes on the Temple of Doom soundtrack, and yet you embrace an equally short (upon initial release) OST with a slapped together rehash for the fight at the sarlaac pit, AND the abominable "Lapti Nek," AND the atrociously Disneyesque Ewok celebration. This for me was the first in a string of (too) many disappointments where Williams' soundtracks are concerned. Although it has very good moments, the production as a whole just seems rushed. It's a fine score, but not a great score. Certainly not on a level with Star Wars or Empire, but well above the headache-inducing Phantom Menace and the undistinguished Attack of the Clones.

IMHO, of course.

[Trumpeteer 302]

but for what was then unthinkable to me: the cannibalizing of music from ANH, particularly Tie Fighter Attack and The Battle of Yavin for use in Sail Barge Attack.

Hey, ROTJ is Star Wars. I don't see the problem is reusing ANH music. It already uses it's themes.

Hmmm. From the looks of it, I think you're saying that you're OK with the use of the cannibalized music during the droid battle in AOTC. After all, AOTC is Star Wars.

But I do see what you're trying to say.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I have been this boards biggest basher of Return of the Jedi, both score and film

To me there is just too much borrowed music from Star Wars. And I am not talking about the main title.

But I admit I still like the score. I do find the 1997 Victory Celebration to be a wonderful piece of music, but I also do not understand why Williams would create that and not incorporate it into the endtitle. Perhaps in the Mega, Super, Ultimate, Ultra, Stupendous, All Encompasing, All Inclusive, Special Edition.

I find merit with all 5 Star Wars scores, but in varying degrees. TPM and AOTC have Duel of the Fates and Confrontation with Count Dukoo/Endtitle.(still never seen or heard Across the Stars, not on my cd).

Joe, who still prefers Star Wars, the one without the gap in the maintitle.

[The Five Tones 302]

but for what was then unthinkable to me: the cannibalizing of music from ANH, particularly Tie Fighter Attack and The Battle of Yavin for use in Sail Barge Attack.

Hey, ROTJ is Star Wars. I don't see the problem is reusing ANH music. It already uses it's themes.

Hmmm. From the looks of it, I think you're saying that you're OK with the use of the cannibalized music during the droid battle in AOTC. After all, AOTC is Star Wars.

But I do see what you're trying to say.

At the time I was taken aback at the reused bits of score, but I have since made peace with it; it's not a lot, it wasn't tracked in but actually played that way, and more importantly it works. Williams actually does some variations on the reused portions after we hear them. So, I have to qualify my objections. Still, to me it is indicative that he was rushed for time, and maybe even just suffering from a lack of inspiration three movies in. I mean he never pulled that stunt in ESB.

But all in all, it was nowhere, nowhere near as problematic as the Sweeney Todd music editing jobs in TPM and especially AOTC. I should have just never slagged ROTJ on this point.

And my friends and I still love to laugh at Lapti Nek.

[tpigeon 3]

i never had the original soundtrack, but i'm sure i would have been just as upset if i did ever own it. and my argument in the other thread has little to do with the song itself, just its inclusion on a fourty minute soundtrack that should have been dedicated solely to score.

[The Five Tones 302]

Once again, I find myself agreeing with a good many of fivetones' comments.

Thanks for the props, old bean!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

As bad silly as Lapti Nek is, it will always be superior to Jedi Rocks.

[UCFKevin 0]

Figo, by coda, you mean the tuba's pumping as the action's about to unfold, with Luke giving R2 the signal?

If so, that IS probably the best part of the track. I mean, I love the rest, but DAMN, that's perfect music making. Excellent build up of tension and excitement.

[The Five Tones 302]

Kevin, I would be that surprised you and Figo could still have regular exchanges after that horrible display in "Star Wars Is Fading Away." If so, good...

By coda, I think he means the wrap-up as the sail barge explodes and the heroes escape. At least, that's what I meant. I always liked that short theme that is unique to the end of the track. It has the tonality of the opening/closing motif from E.T.

But the moment just before the action starts -- great. It's almost saying to us, "Aren't you just dying for this film/score to get going?" No offence to fans of the Rancour scene.

[Figo 2]

i never had the original soundtrack, but i'm sure i would have been just as upset if i did ever own it. and my argument in the other thread has little to do with the song itself, just its inclusion on a fourty minute soundtrack that should have been dedicated solely to score.

This is exactly my point. 40 minute score, padded out with tiresome rehash of TIE Fighter Attack and The Last Battle (as it was once known), Lapti Nek AND Ewok Celebration. That takes up a hell of a lot more useful space than Cole Porter.

By coda, I think he means the wrap-up as the sail barge explodes and the heroes escape. At least, that's what I meant. I always liked that short theme that is unique to the end of the track. It has the tonality of the opening/closing motif from E.T.

That's exactly what I meant. Another inspired coda is the moment of relief we experience in Temple of Doom at the end of the spike chamber sequence, which is cut from the same cloth as the music heard immediately following the destruction of the Death Star.

If you don't see how Kev and I still have regular exchanges, you obviously don't understand the Man Code. Besides, I'm the only one who understands the joke of his superfluous initials.

[The Five Tones 302]

I hope it's some lame acronym like Undercover Fighter or Uncut F***er, rather than the juvenile anagram one might spot at first glance.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

UCF stands for

University of Central Florida Kevin is a student there in Orlando.

Orlando is a foreign city situated in the middle upper Florida penisula.

[The Five Tones 302]

I am getting a lot of mileage out of this thread (even though we use kilometres in Canada)...

Has anyone heard Bjork's album SelmaSongs, the soundtrack to the film Dancer In The Dark? As soon as I heard the first cut, which is an orchestral overture with a Sibelius-like mood, I laughed, because the first few notes of its melody come from Luke and Leia. I would not be surprised if that impressionable creature Bjork had listened closely to the ROTJ score at some point in her upbringing.

[Figo 2]

There's also a Luke and Leia-like passage in Chausson's symphonic poem Viviane, about the beguiling of Merlin. The piece also reminds me of Make Our Garden Grow from Bernstein's Candide. Still love it, though.

I hope it's some lame acronym like Undercover Fighter or Uncut F***er, rather than the juvenile anagram one might spot at first glance.

What's wrong with juvenile anagrams?

Figo, who liked when Thomas Pynchon pulled the same stunt with the radio station in Gravity's Rainbow.

Or was it The Crying of Lot 49?

[UCFKevin 0]

LOL

Joe is correct. No little joke in my name that isn't there on purpose.

[Figo 2]

From now on, I'm signing my name KCUFigo.

[Trumpeteer 302]

At the time I was taken aback at the reused bits of score, but I have since made peace with it; it's not a lot, it wasn't tracked in but actually played that way, and more importantly it works.

Yeah, I don't mind it at all because it's a rerecording, not re-tracked music. So it was obviously planned, and, unlike AOTC, it works.

[UCFKevin 0]

Typical Carpathian, mooching on my screenname.

[Figo 2]

Yeah, it was planned when Lucas said, "Sorry the final cut is so late, John. The film has to be ready for release by the third week of May!"

[AHerrera83 0]

Am I the only one here for which Luke & Leia just doesn't do much for?

Don't get me wrong, I think it's an intricate and sophisticated piece of music, but for some reason, it's just never moved me the way Leia's Theme, Han Solo and the Princess and AotC's Love Theme do. Even Marion's Theme and The River's The Ancestral Home, from that same Williams Era, are much more moving for me.

I've never been able to figure out why...

[UCFKevin 0]

Nah, you aren't alone. I don't care for it much either. Sure, it's a beautiful piece, but it doesn't really do anything for me.

[scissorhands 16]

Have to disagree. Leia&Luke's theme is musically much better than Across the Stars or Leia's theme.

But in the film.......was it necessary a new theme for the brother&sister? I think Williams could avoid it. But the film required a new musically strong theme in ROTJ, as the previous episodes had many of them.

[Figo 2]

I don't know if it's stronger than Leia's Theme, but agreed on all other counts. Perhaps some here hold a deep-rooted psychological antipathy for it, because of Luke and Leia's incestuous near-miss. The movies could have been a lot more "interesting," if you get my drift.

[AHerrera83 0]

Have to disagree. Leia&Luke's theme is musically much better than Across the Stars or Leia's theme.

Oh, I'm sure it is musically better, I just haven't been able to connect to it emotionally.

Perhaps some here hold a deep-rooted psychological antipathy for it, because of Luke and Leia's incestuous near-miss.

Huh? C'mon Figo, repeat after me: "I'm reaching, I'm reaching, I'm reaching..."

eek2

[scissorhands 16]

I don't know if it's stronger than Leia's Theme, but agreed on all other counts.  Perhaps some here hold a deep-rooted psychological antipathy for it, because of Luke and Leia's incestuous near-miss.  The movies could have been a lot more "interesting," if you get my drift.

LOL LOL LOL

[Gamecube 0]

I don't know if it's stronger than Leia's Theme, but agreed on all other counts.  Perhaps some here hold a deep-rooted psychological antipathy for it, because of Luke and Leia's incestuous near-miss.  The movies could have been a lot more "interesting," if you get my drift.

Interesting to you that is. LOL