Joss Whedon's Dollhouse

[Jay 37,364]

Yea this thread should really be renamed Dollhouse Discussion Thread or something

[John Crichton 4]

I've suggested before that it should be the Official Joss Whedon thread.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Fixed.

[John Crichton 4]

Add another Galactica vet to the mix, and I love this, he was one of my absolute favorites: the main guest star in the second episode of season two will be...

Michael Fraking Hogan

[John Crichton 4]

The press copy of Dollhouse 201 is out. Here's Herc's (very, very positive) comments. Season 2 is going to rock.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

I freakin' love this show. I love it. Have I mentioned that before? Because I do. Love it.

Tonight's season premier, "Vows", was excellent! Amy Acker really knocked it out of the park again. I'm gonna miss her not being around most of the season. Fortunately, the rest of the cast is pretty awesome too.

[John Crichton 4]

Hoo boy, there was a lot to chew on in that episode. After a mysterious absence the first part of season one Joss' snappy dialogue continues to resurface, and he still lays down long term plot and deep characters better than anyone. I can't say how happy I am this got renewed.

Jamie Bamber and Aleixs Denisof need to swap accents back.

[Jay 37,364]

Amy Acker won't be around most of the season? Why not?

I was wondering why she's always listed as a guest start instead of in the main credits

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

She's on another show on ABC, Happy Town, so she's only gonna be in 3 of the initial 13 this season. I don't think that has anything to do with her guest star status last season, though. I'm not positive, but I think that had to do with her initially being a guest start but having her role expanded as it went along.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Okaaay, even though I was the enthusiastic individual who originally made this thread, I've only just finished watching the first season and the first ep of season 2. You can thank wretched Australian TV for that, not even bothering to air the show at all.

So, season 1... It was a mixed bag. It started out pretty average. I actually watched the original pilot before the rewritten one and I can say with confidence that canning the original pilot was for the best. I enjoyed the first few eps despite their flaws, even the ones the critics ate alive. I just don't understand how the show was ripped apart for these earlier eps so severely when early Fringe suffered even more from lack-of-characteritis and boring plots, yet was consistently loved by audiences and critics alike... Happily, both shows have improved and are easily two of my favourite shows currently airing (along with The Office).

"Man on the Street" was simply incredible and a real treat after the first few entertaining, but flawed stories. I still worry that Eliza Dushku isn't the best candidate for carrying the series, particularly when she's surrounded by (and frequently overshadowed by) more interesting and versatile actors. And Amy Acker.... If I loved her before I absolutely adore her now. Her few scenes as Whiskey/Doctor Saunders in the last few eps and the unaired one were among the best of the series. She is a fantastic actor and in a perfect world she would be Echo (though in a perfect world she'd still be kicking ass as Illyria... sadly not to be!). I really hope she can work on the show more in future, and hopefully return as a permanent cast member.

"Epitaph One" was seriously fantastic. I disagree that it has painted the future for the series so solidly and negatively - for starters it may not remain canon, and even if it does there's still a LOT more potential for stories that both lead up to and continue from that point. I'm surprised no-one has asked why Dr Saunders/Whiskey seems to not have aged at all after ten years. This is very intriguing and creates the possibility for the main narrative of the show to continue from this future scenario with the original actors as they are now.

P.S. I love Felicia Day.

The new season has started strongly too. Dushku's still not the best, but it's starting to become more of an ensemble show so the others can truly shine. I watch in hope that this show an reach the quality of Buffy, Angel and Firefly.

[John Crichton 4]

With the exception of a few scenes, last night's ep was pants. Really, really tough to watch. The stuff with Denisof's new character was good but I'm worried that it feels a bit too much like Ballard's investigation last year. Mellie's scenes were very good, and there was some good Topher fun, but the rest...man. Not good.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

It took me a while to get into it, and to accept the more straightforward dramatic tone, but I thought it was a great episode. Yes, it's an engagement episode, but unlike the early ones, the engagement actually develops Echo's character.

Also, I thought Eliza really shined in this one, particularly in the police station scene. Loved the last scene, too.

[John Crichton 4]

I want more DeWitt! She's been stuck in neutral this year after having some of the most brilliant scenes last year (the Ms. Lonely Harts plot thread, her scene with Topher in the future in Epitath One).

BTW, this is really worrying: Rock-bottom ratings. You have to wonder how many chances Fox is going to give it.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm starting to worry about this show. I've been hoping and wishing its quality would dramatically increase and stay that way. I've seen the potential it has ("Man on the Street", "Epitaph One") but the follow-through has been atrocious. Come on Joss, we deserve better. Look at all the people who fell in love with Firefly after only 12 episodes!

I'm going to keep watching this show till it stops, whenever that is. But episodes like last night's should have been a thing of the past last season.

[John Crichton 4]

Well, that was certainly better than last week. Some really good dialogue, especially the little wordplay on "medieval", that's classic Joss.

I'm sitting on pins and needles waiting for the ratings now. There's a rumor that after next week's baseball induced hiatus the show might not be back. BUT, apparently the show's UK affiliate has already ordered all 13 episodes so they will all be made and shown over there. We'll just have to find...other means to watch them until the DVD release.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Another excellent, strong episode, this time fleshing out Sierra (who badly needed this episode or risked fading into obscurity). I hope the rest of this season focuses more on the peripheral characters and less on Echo, who's really become the least interesting character on the show. Add in Summer Glau's upcoming appearance and Alexis Denisof's episode next week and I find myself more and more excited for the coming stories. It's just a pity it's taken so long for it to happen. I think this show should've been more of an ensemble piece to begin with, like Lost. Dushku and her character just aren't strong enough to carry a whole show.

I was actually half hoping the episode would suck, just so I could feel better about the fact it probably won't be coming back after the 13 episodes of this season are done. Now I'm probably going to be annoyed.

[John Crichton 4]

Honestly I'm just glad we're getting the full 13 this year, I'm not even worried about anything beyond that 'cause it's ain't happening. I think Joss is going to have a lot to say about Fox screwing around a lot with the show again once it's all done. It's kind of the opposite of Firefly- there Joss got to do the show he wanted only to have his knees cut out from under him. This time he's gotten the episodes, but the way Fox wanted them.

It was a good one this week, and it promises to get better next week. I have to disagree somewhat with the Echo thing: I do think that when they try to do the "Echo engagement of the week" the show is at its weakest, but the doll Echo's attempt to take down the house from within is the best thing about the character. We got some good stuff on that front this last week, I love how she wrote/carved everyone's names onto the glass over her sleeping pod so she would remember them.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Honestly I think the blame is on both Joss and the network. Maybe Joss wanted to make another arc-heavy, character based show which the network disagreed with, preferring a more standalone approach. But the simple fact is the characters up until the end of season one were not strong or likeable enough to call the show an artistic success (a la Firefly), and the stories themselves were not interesting enough for an audience to become hooked and create commercial success. As interesting as the concept is, how can we relate to and appreciate these people when the point of their character is to not develop and not learn from their experiences? Okay, so Echo is slowly retaining her memories of various personalities, but this should've been shown from day one, and not built up at snails pace to finally, explicitly happen in season two. Of course, had the network not had their way I'm sure this would've been addressed sooner, as there would've been less time spent on action-packed and sexy engagements and more on the ongoing issues, but shouldn't Joss have predicted this possiblilty? Especially as Fox have already screwed him over twice before by cancelling Firefly and Angel.

I won't say I haven't enjoyed the show; it's still better than most of the crap out there right now. But I'm frustrated with the lack of consistency between episodes and even more by its obvious potential. As at least three episodes have demonstrated, this show can be stunning television. But three episodes out of 17 is not enough for me. I know that Joss and the network don't owe anything to me, and I'm very grateful for the previous, more successful ventures from both parties, but the blame for Dollhouse struggling with casual viewers and hardcore Whedon fans is on both of them.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

Okay... and I'm not just saying this because he's Frakes... but Jonathan Frakes' direction on "Belonging" was fantastic. Very cinematic feel. Great episode.

Especially as Fox have already screwed him over twice before by cancelling Firefly and Angel.

FOX can be blamed for many things, but the WB's cancellation of Angel is not one of them.

Also, there will be no new Dollhouse episodes in November. FOX is pulling it for Sweeps, since they're actually gonna be trying to get good ratings. So instead we'll get double-Dollhouse Fridays in December, and a few more episodes in January. (Link)

[John Crichton 4]

Well, we all figured it, but now it's official: Dollhouse is cancelled.

Fox will still be showing all the remaning episodes, starting next month.

[Jay 37,364]

Too bad, the show's been getting better the longer it goes on

Hopefully another network will pick it up

If I was Fox, I wouldn't even announce that it was canceled until after those episodes aired. Now people will be even less likely to watch. Sigh.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the show is wrapped up. One good thing about the whole affair is that there is an end point which the writers have been working towards, which means tighter writing and less fluff episodes (in theory). A great example of this is the last five or six episodes of ALIAS, which tied up the series nicely after they found out the show wouldn't continue. I won't lose any sleep over the decision; compared to Angel and Firefly this one didn't really convince me why it should stay on the air. Still, it was nice while it lasted.

[John Crichton 4]

Yes, this show never came close to acheiving the brilliance of Firefly. It's easily the weakest Joss we've seen since the early days of Buffy.

But the good news is, this'll free him up to work on that long-planned Dr. Horrible sequel.

[Jay 37,364]

I'm looking forward to seeing how the show is wrapped up. One good thing about the whole affair is that there is an end point which the writers have been working towards, which means tighter writing and less fluff episodes (in theory). A great example of this is the last five or six episodes of ALIAS, which tied up the series nicely after they found out the show wouldn't continue. I won't lose any sleep over the decision; compared to Angel and Firefly this one didn't really convince me why it should stay on the air. Still, it was nice while it lasted.

Actually, I believe all 13 episodes were written and filmed before this announcement

[John Crichton 4]

No, one of the articles I've read about the cancellation said they're currently filming ep. 11.

http://www.hollywoodreporter.com/hr/content_display/television/news/e3ibd4c93af8a3194fa8f32bc3b11c6126a?imw=Y

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

Indeed, and Joss has stated that he anticipated the decision so wrote the remainder of the episodes with a sense of closure in mind.

[Jay 37,364]

Well, that's a bit of a silver lining I suppose

[John Crichton 4]

A blind man in Ghana with no TV could have anticipated this decision.

This makes me wonder what would have happened if the proposed Faith series had ever happened. Dushku has certainly proven herself inadequate as a leading lady, yet Faith was the character that made her career and she was certainly good in the role.

[Jay 37,364]

English actor Adam Godley (The X-Files: I Want to Believe)has been cast as Clyde, a genius who holds secrets to the dollhouse.The role is potentially recurring. Or as potentially recurring as onecan be when the show only has nine episodes left. Speaking of which,here's a handy clip-n-save rundown of how D'house's remaining episodes will be burned off air.

Dec. 4: two episodes

Dec. 11: two episodes

Dec 18: two episodes

Jan 8: one episode

Jan 15: one episode

Jan 22: one episode (series finale)

[Jay 37,364]

Just watched this weeks episodes. Wow.

Wow wow wow. This show is amazing. I absolutely love every storyline they are doing. Great stuff.

[John Crichton 4]

Figures that the show gets compelling again after it's cancelled. I'm OK with it though, I'm looking forward to the final run. BTW, the finale will be a direct sequel to Epitath One called Epitath Two: Return.

Joss has all but confirmed that there's a Dr. Horrible sequel on the way. The title's done and Jed and Maurissa are working on the script. I don't think they've decided what format they're going to release in, either.

[Jay 37,364]

BTW, the finale will be a direct sequel to Epitath One called Epitath Two: Return.

Excellent.

I already want to re-watch the whole series on Blu. It's so good!

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

"It's a wrap." Today was the last day of shooting on Dollhouse.

[Jay 37,364]

So what did everyone think of the December and January episodes? I LOVED them for the most part... all the stuff with the attic, with bennet, everything was great... up through and including the revelation that Boyd was the big bad.

However, the most recent episode, episode 12, I didn't like as much. So... Boyd only really wanted her spinal fluid? Cause that can be used to block auto-imprinting? Well, that sounds like a GOOD thing to me. Echo should have donated it willingly! He said it wouldn't kill her (just hurt her). I dunno. A lot of the other stuff just seemed kinda rushed too.

Looking forward to Epitaph Two tonight, however. I might actually re-watch Epitaph One on blu before I do, just cause I don't remembe a whole lot about it.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

Yeah, "The Hollow Men" was kinda disappointing. I don't think Fazekas & Butters should've been given what was essentially the finale of the "modern" Dollhouse. Tim Minear's previous episode was SO AWESOME, and then that one was kinda... meh. Very much looking forward to tonight's though.

[John Crichton 4]

Good finale. Had some very Joss lines, the usual Joss finale evil deaths, and definately good emotional closure. I loved the new Alpha, and what a wonderful journey Topher has gone on during the course of the series. And we've all given Dushku grief for not being a good enough actor to carry a series, but she really did nail a couple of key scenes in the last part of the ep.

There's no doubt in my mind that this was Joss' weakest TV series, but despite some warts in the first halves of both seasons, it's been a good ride and another show that I'll be happy to have on my DVD shelf.

[tjguitar 0]

When did Alpha go good? This episode made no sense to me, but the episode that it's a followup to never even aired on TV from what I remember.

Hard to believe Boyd was the head honcho this whole time..I don't usually watch Whedon shows but I guess that 'coming out of nowhere' stuff is typical...and plenty of it throughout the series.

[Jay 37,364]

Yea episode 11, and really every episode leading up to it this season, was great. Episode 12 just felt so... "off" and rushed. I think I remember reading that they were halfway through either filming or writing episode 11 when the cancellation order came down, so its possible that episode 12 was completely rewritten to wrap up the "modern day" storyline rather than do whatever their original plan was for it they thought there would be another season.

As for Epitaph Two... well let me just say I am glad I re-watched Epitaph One before watching it. I must have been half-asleep when I watched E1 or something, cause man most of it I didn't remember. Like for example the Boyd / Claire scene where she says goodbye as he packs up after being shot from the other week's episode was actually first seen in E1. In fact, I betcha they had plans to work a lot of the "flashbacks" from E1 into future episodes had the show gone on and on. Anyway, its kind of funny that E1 ended with Mag and Zone leaving the Dollhouse.... and 20 minutes into E2 the plan is to head right back in, lol. I liked the idea that Topher went crazy but was able to reel it in enough to figure out how to save humanity. Didn't believe that he had to die to do it, though. Looked liked all you had to do was turn the device on then run away. Paul's death was handled really well. Not the death itself, but Echo's reaction to it. Kind of nice she gets to keep an imprint of him inside her. But where did Alpha get it from?

It's a shame we'll never get to see episodes about Alpha's transformation from baddie to reformed good guy. Or the fate of November. Or all the other stuff that happened between 2010 and 2020. Oh well. Maybe in a comic or something one day.

[John Crichton 4]

I liked the idea that Topher went crazy but was able to reel it in enough to figure out how to save humanity. Didn't believe that he had to die to do it, though.

He had to pay a price. As much good as he did to fix everything, he was the one that originally created all the technology.

Or the fate of November.

We did see that, in the attack on Rossum.

Personally I'm fine with it the way it is. As I said, for the most part it was a good run, but I'd prefer Joss and co. to just go ahead and let it be and move on to other things.

[Docteur Qui 1,544]

I definitely think that Dollhouse is well and truly over. Joss rarely gets a sense of closure with his shows, but was able to with this one. The overall plan of the series was compromised when he decided to cram three seasons worth of material in six episodes, so there's not really much left to say. It's time for Joss to move on, and the best part about his projects is how unpredictable and different they seem to be. I hope he hasn't given up on television because even though DH was his weakest show, it was still better than 98% of whatever other drivel is on TV.

[Matt C 454]

I hope he hasn't given up on television because even though DH was his weakest show, it was still better than 98% of whatever other drivel is on TV.

I'm surprised Joss isn't getting offers out of the wazoo from cable companies like HBO or Showtime. (Or if he is, he's not biting.) I'd think a show like Dollhouse (or Buffy even) would've worked better without the constraints of broadcast television.

I hear he's meeting with executives from FX Network. Even a Whedon-produced FX show would be great -- for some ungodly reason he keeps going to 20th Century Fox TV even though they screwed him over for Firefly and Dollhouse.

[John Crichton 4]

I don't think Joss would have done Fox again if Dushku's contract wasn't with them, she's the one that pitched the show to him.

And yes, there was a bit a wave over the interwebs a couple of weeks ago when an FX executive said he was having lunch with Joss. I think cable would be the right move for him. And the Dr. Horrible sequel is moving forward at last word.

[Kendal_Ozzel 36]

I hear he's meeting with executives from FX Network. Even a Whedon-produced FX show would be great -- for some ungodly reason he keeps going to 20th Century Fox TV even though they screwed him over for Firefly and Dollhouse.

But it's not 20th Century Fox Television that's twice screwed him, it's the FOX network. (20th owns all four of his shows.) While yes, it all goes back to News Corp. in the end, FX and FOX are totally separate networks.

I liked the idea that Topher went crazy but was able to reel it in enough to figure out how to save humanity. Didn't believe that he had to die to do it, though.

He had to pay a price. As much good as he did to fix everything, he was the one that originally created all the technology.

Also, remember he said that he didn't want to cause any more pain. With him gone, no one else would be able to use him for evil. So since somebody had to set up us the bomb to fix what he did, Topher had to be the guy to do it. Broke my heart, but it was the perfect end to what turned out to be an amazing character arc.

[Jay 37,364]

Yea, Topher's arc was a great one.

OMG you're right, I can't believe I forgot we did see how Mellie/November's story ends. Also tragic. Eeesh.

[Jay 37,364]

Season 2 DVD/Blu is coming out October 12!

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/B002JVWR54/thedigitalbit-20

[John Crichton 4]

I wonder what took so long?

That's two big TV sets for me in a month, series 5 of Doctor Who is out November 9th.