Favourite use of leitmotif in film scores

[ASW 0]

Is there a moment in a film score, Williams or otherwise, where you thought a leitmotif was used in a particularly vivid fashion that really carried the story forward? I'll start with an example of my own.

The "No More Hook" cue from the expanded Hook opens with a sort of triumphant statement of the Lost Boys' theme as Peter leads them in a sort of victory dance around the fallen crocodile. Then as Peter sees his kids and realizes he "can't stay and play" and has to go home, JW puts in kind of "matured" version of the same theme (I'm not musically literate enough to describe the differences, but there's definitely some modulation and other mutation going on), which , I think represents well the idea that the lost boy in Peter has grown up. The realization is seen in Robin Williams' expression in that scene as well, I think, and the music reflects it really well. I may not be describing this that well but it's IMHO one of JW's finest moments.

soo...if you have any comments or other examples in mind, please share

ASW (formerly, elcbwan)

[indy4 155]

The use of the love theme (I'm just assuming it's a love theme, as I've never seen Far and Away) in "The Land Race" has always been a favorite of him.

Nice signature, ASW.

[ASW 0]

haha glad someone recognized it! I sorta meant instances where a leitmotif's use really vividly accentuated whatever it is it's supposed to represent or something that was happening on screen... but "The Land Race" is a fantastic track from a fine score, one that, alas, isn't discussed that often here. The use of the theme you mention is an awesome moment. Good mention!

Another example I've thought of is in the unreleased music in Last Crusade, when Indy runs home after the chase on the train. There's a cool, quick statement of the Raiders' March heard when he runs inside and Indiana the dog looks up at him...I sometimes wonder if it's supposed to foreshadow the idea that Indy "is named after the dog"...but I could be overanalyzing. At any rate it's a great non-brassy/heroic statement of the theme.

ASW, who feels a little lame that 2/3s of the posts in a topic that he started are his own

[Beowulf 4]

I like anytime when "Short Round's theme" is used in TOD.

The introduction of Short Round in the film is one of the best times it is used, I would think.

[Erik Woods 555]

There's a cool, quick statement of the Raiders' March heard when he runs inside and Indiana the dog looks up at him...I sometimes wonder if it's supposed to foreshadow the idea that Indy "is named after the dog"...but I could be overanalyzing. At any rate it's a great non-brassy/heroic statement of the theme.

That was the point!

-Erik-

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Plenty of those in-your-face Imperial March renditions are cool. Though perhaps my favourite is the understated version when Vader is first seen at the Hoth base. Those are mostly "cinematic" standouts.

For an instance of a leitmotif carrying part of the plot, the creepily orchestrated slave/rowing theme in Ben-Hur comes to mind, when the title character looks down to the slaves after being rescued by the Romans.

[Delorean90 42]

Another example I've thought of is in the unreleased music in Last Crusade, when Indy runs home after the chase on the train. There's a cool, quick statement of the Raiders' March heard when he runs inside and Indiana the dog looks up at him...I sometimes wonder if it's supposed to foreshadow the idea that Indy "is named after the dog"...but I could be overanalyzing. At any rate it's a great non-brassy/heroic statement of the theme.

Yeah, it's a really nice moment, as is the bit preceding it where Fedora sees Indy running from the train. Williams's music just ups that moment a thousand notches with the march and that light-hearted brass passage leading back into the "First Adventure" motif as Indy runs to the house.

[ASW 0]

There's a cool, quick statement of the Raiders' March heard when he runs inside and Indiana the dog looks up at him...I sometimes wonder if it's supposed to foreshadow the idea that Indy "is named after the dog"...but I could be overanalyzing. At any rate it's a great non-brassy/heroic statement of the theme.

That was the point!

-Erik-

aha glad to have the theory confirmed then.

Plenty of those in-your-face Imperial March renditions are cool. Though perhaps my favourite is the understated version when Vader is first seen at the Hoth base. Those are mostly "cinematic" standouts.

For an instance of a leitmotif carrying part of the plot, the creepily orchestrated slave/rowing theme in Ben-Hur comes to mind, when the title character looks down to the slaves after being rescued by the Romans.

Yes there are a lot of really good statements of that theme in the Hoth cues. One favourite of mine is the one heard just before General Veers' AT-AT is about to fire on the shield generator (that really cool effects shot of it shooting down a passing snowspeeder). On the SE album it's at 11:14-11:40. I just love the strings in the back supporting the theme, the fast tempo, and that added note to the main melody before the antecedent of the theme (my musical vocabulary is probably lacking here ). I think it's looped a little in the film, though, but I could be wrong.

And that bit in Ben Hur is kinda neat. It's been a while since I've seen the film and I don't have it on album, but I vaguely recall that.

Another example I've thought of is in the unreleased music in Last Crusade, when Indy runs home after the chase on the train. There's a cool, quick statement of the Raiders' March heard when he runs inside and Indiana the dog looks up at him...I sometimes wonder if it's supposed to foreshadow the idea that Indy "is named after the dog"...but I could be overanalyzing. At any rate it's a great non-brassy/heroic statement of the theme.

Yeah, it's a really nice moment, as is the bit preceding it where Fedora sees Indy running from the train. Williams's music just ups that moment a thousand notches with the march and that light-hearted brass passage leading back into the "First Adventure" motif as Indy runs to the house.

yeah!...all that unreleased stuff in the First Adventure cue is fantastic. Also of note is the way JW hints at the theme when he picks up the whip for the first time. Shame it isn't available in a legit release.

ASW

[Delorean90 42]

The complete Indy scores simply must be released this winter. It's gotta happen.

[Red 75]

There's all sorts of those moments in Hook. Another one that comes to mind is in "From Mermaids to Lost Boys" when Peter sees a panoramic view of Neverland and the Memory theme plays. Right after this Peter falls down, and the french horn repeats the first two notes of the theme three times, representing Peter trying to latch on to the memory but can't.

[ASW 0]

There's all sorts of those moments in Hook. Another one that comes to mind is in "From Mermaids to Lost Boys" when Peter sees a panoramic view of Neverland and the Memory theme plays. Right after this Peter falls down, and the french horn repeats the first two notes of the theme three times, representing Peter trying to latch on to the memory but can't.

Cool! I know the cue and I've seen the film so many times (I guess I'm one of the few around who doesn't mind it too much ) but I never made that connection...will definitely look out for that next time I see/listen to it. I also love how, in that score, the Childhood and Peter Pan themes are developed. They're always hinted at but never get full, robust treatments until Peter's finally become Peter Pan again and remembered what it means to be child in the last few minutes of "Remembering Childhood". In the "Never Feast" cue, the Peter Pan theme (I think that's what it's supposed to represent) is just hinted at when he holds the sword after having cut up the flying coconut. He's just barely grasped who he used to be at that point, and JW captures that brilliantly.

ASW

[Red 75]

Yes, those are fantastic moments. In the complete score that theme is developed even more, but unfortunately, most of that music was cut from the film.

[AzOutcast 122]

There's all sorts of those moments in Hook. Another one that comes to mind is in "From Mermaids to Lost Boys" when Peter sees a panoramic view of Neverland and the Memory theme plays. Right after this Peter falls down, and the french horn repeats the first two notes of the theme three times, representing Peter trying to latch on to the memory but can't.

Cool! I know the cue and I've seen the film so many times (I guess I'm one of the few around who doesn't mind it too much ) but I never made that connection...will definitely look out for that next time I see/listen to it. I also love how, in that score, the Childhood and Peter Pan themes are developed. They're always hinted at but never get full, robust treatments until Peter's finally become Peter Pan again and remembered what it means to be child in the last few minutes of "Remembering Childhood". In the "Never Feast" cue, the Peter Pan theme (I think that's what it's supposed to represent) is just hinted at when he holds the sword after having cut up the flying coconut. He's just barely grasped who he used to be at that point, and JW captures that brilliantly.

ASW

I've actually just gotten into the Hook score more recently over the past couple of months. Aside from a great score (that goes without saying) I think it's amazing the potential that movie had. All the themes, the music, the director, the actors (although I would have liked to have seen Kevin Kline in the role), etc. But I watched the flick a few weeks ago and . . . it really wasn't all that good. It has a moment or two there, and again, potential that just skyrockets . . . but it's just kinda "meh."

As for a leitmotif . . . I dunno, I suppose any time a theme is brought up during an action sequence. There are really too many to list. Hearing the Nazi theme during Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra is one of the first I heard when I was really young and thought to myself, ". . . I like it."

[ASW 0]

Yes, those are fantastic moments. In the complete score that theme is developed even more, but unfortunately, most of that music was cut from the film.

Absolutely, if memory serves, the theme also makes an appearance in the Shadow of Peter Pan cue (after Hook sees that Peter Banning is too afraid of heights to save his kids), serving the same purpose as previously mentioned. Don't remember if that's actually in the final cut of the film, though.

Nice signature btw, red_rabbit

There's all sorts of those moments in Hook. Another one that comes to mind is in "From Mermaids to Lost Boys" when Peter sees a panoramic view of Neverland and the Memory theme plays. Right after this Peter falls down, and the french horn repeats the first two notes of the theme three times, representing Peter trying to latch on to the memory but can't.

Cool! I know the cue and I've seen the film so many times (I guess I'm one of the few around who doesn't mind it too much ) but I never made that connection...will definitely look out for that next time I see/listen to it. I also love how, in that score, the Childhood and Peter Pan themes are developed. They're always hinted at but never get full, robust treatments until Peter's finally become Peter Pan again and remembered what it means to be child in the last few minutes of "Remembering Childhood". In the "Never Feast" cue, the Peter Pan theme (I think that's what it's supposed to represent) is just hinted at when he holds the sword after having cut up the flying coconut. He's just barely grasped who he used to be at that point, and JW captures that brilliantly.

ASW

I've actually just gotten into the Hook score more recently over the past couple of months. Aside from a great score (that goes without saying) I think it's amazing the potential that movie had. All the themes, the music, the director, the actors (although I would have liked to have seen Kevin Kline in the role), etc. But I watched the flick a few weeks ago and . . . it really wasn't all that good. It has a moment or two there, and again, potential that just skyrockets . . . but it's just kinda "meh."

As for a leitmotif . . . I dunno, I suppose any time a theme is brought up during an action sequence. There are really too many to list. Hearing the Nazi theme during Scherzo for Motorcycle and Orchestra is one of the first I heard when I was really young and thought to myself, ". . . I like it."

Yes, I still enjoy the film today but (aside from the score as well as the positive qualities you mentioned) I'll admit that a lot of my enjoyment is more from its sentimental value since I sorta grew up watching it over and over. And I too would have liked to see Kline as Peter, although I quite like Robin Williams's performace.

As for themes exploding into an action sequence... you gotta mention "The Big Rescue" from Superman... or perhaps the first (almost) full statement of the Raiders' March in "Desert Chase" (after that great fanfare when Indy's taken the horse)...or the opening of "Asteroid Field".... agh there really are too many to list

ASW

[Red 75]

Nice signature btw, red_rabbit

Thank you.

I'm a fan of the movie, which definitely has something to do with my love of the score.

[AzOutcast 122]

You're right of course. And back to Hook, just to clear up, I enjoyed that flick immensely in theaters. I hadn't really seen it too much after that though (no clue why) and I think Williams did a great job as Peter. I'm just merely curious as to how Kline would've done it (not that much different, I suppose).

There's one I'm missing in Raiders. You guys know a lot more than me, so I'm sure you have a name for it. That theme used when Indy is taking his horse down the hill and heading for the truck, they play that "Truck theme" as I always refer to it. It's used throughout the chase, but it's also used previously during the fight at the plane (if I remember correctly, when a truck filled to the brim with soldiers is approaching, and Marion takes 'em out). I LOVE THAT! That's probably my favorite at the moment.

[Delorean90 42]

That's the Nazi theme from Raiders.

[AzOutcast 122]

That's the Nazi theme from Raiders.

. . . that makes sense.

[ASW 0]

Nice signature btw, red_rabbit

Thank you.

I'm a fan of the movie, which definitely has something to do with my love of the score.

Nice to know there are other fans out there I've seen it so many times but it's overdue for another viewing.

You're right of course. And back to Hook, just to clear up, I enjoyed that flick immensely in theaters. I hadn't really seen it too much after that though (no clue why) and I think Williams did a great job as Peter. I'm just merely curious as to how Kline would've done it (not that much different, I suppose).

There's one I'm missing in Raiders. You guys know a lot more than me, so I'm sure you have a name for it. That theme used when Indy is taking his horse down the hill and heading for the truck, they play that "Truck theme" as I always refer to it. It's used throughout the chase, but it's also used previously during the fight at the plane (if I remember correctly, when a truck filled to the brim with soldiers is approaching, and Marion takes 'em out). I LOVE THAT! That's probably my favorite at the moment.

Actually, I can also see Kline playing the role in a way similar to the way Williams tackled it as well. I guess that's why Spielberg chose Williams in the end (I believe Kline was first choice right?).

About Raiders, I always thought that was the pre-Last Crusade Nazi theme, but never really arrived at a solid conclusion on that. In any case, it's awesome in the film and score. Also in Desert Chase, I love the statement of the B section of the Raiders' March after Indy has gained control of the truck (afer he and the truck driver share a laugh at the poor worker who lands on the windshield...then tosses him out as well). It's simply unbelievably cool.

ASW

[Red 75]

That's the Nazi theme from Raiders.

That's really more of a motif.

[Delorean90 42]

Well, yeah, if you wanna get picky.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Yes, those are fantastic moments. In the complete score that theme is developed even more, but unfortunately, most of that music was cut from the film.

Was there much music cut from the film? I don't remember any serious edits. I think it's just that a lot of the cues on the CD are actually expanded album versions. Or at least that's how it always seemed to me.

[Red 75]

It's not a lot of music. The cue I was referring to before is "A Shadow of Pan", which out of its seven minute or so running time, about five to six minutes was cut. Other than that, the only track missing is "Rufio's Theme" (other than alternates).

[Delorean90 42]

Some SPOILERS here. The album is missing a few passages from "The Ultimate War," including some of the music from when Peter first arrives at the ship, and some Lost Boys arrival music, although the film version may be an alternate/insert. "Remembering Childhood" is also missing a lot of the music from Peter finding the tree entrance and the old hideout. It would seem, though, that "Farewell Neverland" indeed has the original music for Peter saying goodbye to the Lost Boys. The middle of "Presenting the Hook" where Tink fights the pirates is missing as well.

In the film, I'm pretty sure the end of "Big Thoughts" is missing, as it would have segued into "The Ultimate War." Other than that, I'm not sure. But it's getting late here, and I'm running out of gas, so I might be missing something.

[John Crichton 4]

The huge statement of the Neverland theme at the end of Flight to Neverland is shorter on the OST, Banning Back Home has different versions from the OST to the film, and there's a bit of The Never Feast that's cut out of the OST too.

[Red 75]

In the film, I'm pretty sure the end of "Big Thoughts" is missing, as it would have segued into "The Ultimate War."

Yes, that is another bit missing from the film.

If we're talking about the OST, then over half of the music in the movie is MIA.

[ASW 0]

Some SPOILERS here. The album is missing a few passages from "The Ultimate War," including some of the music from when Peter first arrives at the ship, and some Lost Boys arrival music, although the film version may be an alternate/insert. "Remembering Childhood" is also missing a lot of the music from Peter finding the tree entrance and the old hideout. It would seem, though, that "Farewell Neverland" indeed has the original music for Peter saying goodbye to the Lost Boys. The middle of "Presenting the Hook" where Tink fights the pirates is missing as well.

In the film, I'm pretty sure the end of "Big Thoughts" is missing, as it would have segued into "The Ultimate War." Other than that, I'm not sure. But it's getting late here, and I'm running out of gas, so I might be missing something.

Yes. I believe the OST version of "The Never Feast" is also an alternate take of the film version.

Another example pertaining to the topic: In Star Trek V, there's a cool passage in "A Busy Man" where Goldsmith puts in a brief quote of the Klingon motif leading into a grand statement of the God Theme as the camera closes in on a Bird of Prey on a screen on the Enterprise bridge as everyone is gazing in wonder at the main screen (sorry I'm afraid I don't have track times handy). Just the way he fit in the motif like that without really resorting to an overt shift in mood was brilliant.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Another example from Hook is the use of the jaunty Hook/Smee theme in "The Ultimate War." Actually, that entire cue is amazing amalgamation of themes and motifs.

[ASW 0]

Yes and the level of synchronization in that cue as seen in the film is incredible as well. Even without the mickeymousing, it boggles the mind how JW, and the orchestra, for that matter, was able to keep up with so many.

[Maglorfin 196]

One of my favourite moments is the use of the Kryptonite motive in Luthor's Lethal Weapon, and also other uses of this great motive. Also different uses of Seduction of the Ring theme in the LotR movies (OK, that's not a leitmotif anymore ).

[ASW 0]

Also different uses of Seduction of the Ring theme in the LotR movies (OK, that's not a leitmotif anymore ).

It's not?

[Maglorfin 196]

I guess not, isn't it too long to still be considered as a leitmotif - long enough to be considered as a theme?

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

If we're talking about the OST, then over half of the music in the movie is MIA.

Oh, certainly. I was talking about music on the album that isn't in the film. I don't think that's due to editing in most instances, but to expanded cues on the album. When the entire score is concerned, the album is in great need of expansion.

Another example pertaining to the topic: In Star Trek V, there's a cool passage in "A Busy Man" where Goldsmith puts in a brief quote of the Klingon motif leading into a grand statement of the God Theme as the camera closes in on a Bird of Prey on a screen on the Enterprise bridge as everyone is gazing in wonder at the main screen (sorry I'm afraid I don't have track times handy). Just the way he fit in the motif like that without really resorting to an overt shift in mood was brilliant.

Ah, how could I forget that one - one of my favourites. One of the most brilliant and inspired uses of leitmotif I can think of.

[ASW 0]

haha It took me forever to realize that was the Klingon motif in that scene in ST V. I'd listened to the cue a number of times but never made the connection until I watched the film. Indeed, an awesome moment.

.In response to Maglorfin's post. hmm....I think you mean short enough to be a motif rather than a theme . I think calling it a leitmotif still applies as the motif still represents something in the narrative, i.e. the Ring's power to tempt people etc.

ASW

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

"Theme" on this board is usually just used as a synonym for "leitmotif", anyway.

[Maglorfin 196]

Well, OK then. Though probably a leitmotif is theoretically speaking supposed to be shorter than a theme, such as being only one or two bars long, whilst themes are usually longer and take anywhere from several to 16 or more bars ... At least I always thought of those two terms in that way.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

A "leitmotif" is any motif or theme which represents a specific character/situation/something. Wagner's Ring leitmotifs mostly are short motifs, but a few of them are lengthier (e.g. the one for Siegfried's) or consist of two or three separate motifs which are usually concatenated in some way.

[oierem 152]

Btw, did you know that Wagner never used the word "leitmotif"? He used the term "Grundthema" (basic idea) or just "motiv" instead.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

I think I read that once. But apparently it shows that even Wagner used "Thema" and "Motiv" interchangably when referring to leitmotifs.

[ASW 0]

Another non-Williams example. Bernard Herrmann's use of the Rosebud motif in Citizen Kane is really quite clever in that he with every time he uses it he hints at what Rosebud really is, even though Welles' and Mankiewitz's (spelling?) script do not. It's particularly subtle in the scene where Kane meets Susan. I made a point of bringing the motif up in my film class after we watched it...a shame that music was virtually never discussed by anyone else in the class for the films we watched.

ASW

[Maglorfin 196]

I absolutely adore Mr Wint and Mr Kidd's theme every time they appear in Diamonds Are Forever.