JW examples of bitonality?

[indy4 155]

I was reading a little about bitonality (the use of two different key signatures at once). Can anybody give me track titles and times of bitonality? I have no idea what it would sound like. Thanks in advance!

[Henry B 50]

That's a really vague term. It means more the use of two pitch centers, not traditional keys, which Williams rarely writes in. And it's not like you just write two things in different keys and slap them on top of each other. Maybe there's a specific, modern compositional process that I'm missing? I heard about bitonality in the Violin Duo Concertante. But I dunno.

One piece (not by Williams) that strikes me as decidedly bitonal is a piece I'm singing in college choir right now,

by Jaakko Mäntyjärvi. Especially around 2:10. Extended sections of parallel melodies in different keys.

[Eric_JWFAN 11]

I think there are some moments in Jaws that are quasi-bitonal.

[indy4 155]

Ah okay, thanks guys. That's what I get for using a Wikipedia definition for a complex musical term.

[MSM 126]

It's all over JW's music.

[filmmusic 1,836]

And it's not like you just write two things in different keys and slap them on top of each other.

It could mean this too..

basically bitonal is when two tonalities are used simultaneously.

eg a melody is in D major and the harmony is in Abmajor. Or a melody with a counter melody are in differnet tonalities etc..

A bitonal passage (although not strictly bitonal) is in 10.36 of the Battle in Star wars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gYus24ewmLg

[ChrisAfonso 186]

The beginning of "Imperial Attack" (SE track 3) from Star Wars (and similar passages in the score) could be classified as bitonal, as the pedal (unchanging pitch in the bass) is at odds with the harmonies of the Rebel Fanfare on top. Though I guess it's not a strict case, because the R.F. chords do not belong to one single key (it's more of a kind of "mixture" in the Debussy sense of the word).

[Foxfan 128]

What about "A New Beginning" from Minority Report?

[filmmusic 1,836]

What about "A New Beginning" from Minority Report?

No this isn't bitonal..

[Hedwig 5]

Does bitonality mean the same thing as polytonality? If so I can't give any examples but I know John Williams does it a lot.

- In the comments of this video of 'Over The Moon' from E.T a guy says, "For the theory people out there; something that illustrates John Williams genious with the E.T. score is his use of polytonality, which refers to music played in two keys simultaneously. The human mind is not normally accustomed to following music with two tonic centers, which can often give the polytonal technique an otherworldly or just outright bizarre feeling. Of course, this works perfectly for E.T.; a story centering on a lost creature from another planet"- So If he's right then E.T is a very good example

That's a really vague term. It means more the use of two pitch centers, not traditional keys, which Williams rarely writes in. And it's not like you just write two things in different keys and slap them on top of each other.

What do you mean by 'pitch centers' instead of traditional keys? Is it a diffrent way of composing? My theory can be very vague

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ok so we have establish that bitonality is different from "normal" tonality, right?

Getting somewhere with this...

[Hedwig 5]

"Williams work in the movie was very interesting and modernist especially with his use of polytonality. Polytonality, which refers to the sound of two different keys playing simultaneously, is popular in scores for space films and action/adventure films. It is associated with Igor Stravinsky’s ballets the Rite of Spring and Petrushka and the two chords that characterize polytonality are often referred to as the “Stravinsky” chords. Something known as the Lydian mode can also be used in a polytonal way, because the C Lydian mode uses both C major and D major triads. Williams combines polytonality and the Lydian mode for the score of “E.T.” (1982) to express a mystic, dreamlike and heroic quality."- Found this on Wiki too, if it helps explain it for some people

[filmmusic 1,836]

Polytonality includes bitonality.

When we have only 2 tonalities sounding simultaneously is bitonality.

When there are MORE than 2 tonalities it's polytonality. it's from poly + tonality ("poly" in Greek = many, much)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How can musicians understand each other?

[filmmusic 1,836]

How can musicians understand each other?

sorry?

another example of bitonality (although it doesn't show so much because there is a bass note involved)

0.27''-0.39'' (the melody and harmony is A major, while the bass note is C (C is not a part of the A Major scale but C# is)

another example:

whenever you hear the synthesizer motif which is at 0.08'', the overall passage becomes bitonal.

The one tonality in which the piece is mainly is C major (up until 0.45'' at least), and the synthesizer motif is in a complex scale which includes C-D-Eb-F#-G#-B

[indy4 155]

Thanks for the info/examples everyone!

[Hlao-roo 389]

I find this whole discussion offensive.

[MSM 126]

Another example that comes to mind, at 1:11 and 1:18:

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I find this whole discussion offensive.

But it is bitonal?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

John Williams is trytonal.

[nightscape94 965]

So this isn't where two of the same tones like each other?

[Henry Sarton 0]

Star Wars (all the saga) is FULL of polytonal passages. Here one example:

The first chord (that is a poly-chord) that you can listen is a C major chord in the medium-high pitches in orchestra versus Db major in the other half of the orchestra. During this cue, you can listen too a loooots of poly-chords and bi-tonal examples.

For listen the effect, try to play in a piano the examples posted in this thread and try to create you own poly-chords

Also, for more examples of bi (or poly) tonality, listen all the Stravinsky's ballets. Really great stuff!

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

For the record, this one's a tritonal chord of B minor, E minor, and F# major. It contains every single note of the B harmonic minor scale, and is an example of what Debussy called "tonal saturation."

[Score 770]

Another example, which in my opinion illustrates very well the concept, is in the cue "The Reunion", from "War of the Worlds".

In this track, from 1:14 to 1:21 the strings are playing a chord of C major in the low register, while the piano is playing SOLO some notes that belong to the scale of A flat major. A few seconds later, starting at 1:31, the piano plays notes belonging to the scale of B major (except for a natural A occurring in one point), with the low strings playing again a C major chord, although the violins underline some notes of the piano part in B major. At 1:55 they all play C major, giving a sense of accomplishment and stability, which contrasts with what had come before. I've always found this passage to be very effective.