Has Dissonance in Film Music Become Domesticated and Commodified?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Grey, any new thoughts on how Huppertz's score has influenced all of these sci-fi scores?

Some of the woodwind/soft percussion writing is all over the place in Star Wars. It's really striking. Hard to say what else... certainly the language is mostly more old-fashioned than you'd hear in later sci-fi stuff, but there are those odd proto-minimalist passages....

Speaking of woodwinds, maybe this is a good place to air a thought I had tonight. Why exactly have woodwinds become so sidelined in scores? Some people will tell you that it's because they're finicky and "hard to write for" and most modern composers are simply not skilled enough to reach the mystic heights of woodwind orchestration mastery... buttttttt, I think there's something else to it. Bruckheimer didn't excise them from POTC because Debney couldn't write for them... no, is there something inherent to the sound of woodwinds that "dates" music in a way that strings or brass for some reason don't? Why do they scream "classical" while the rest of the orchestra doesn't? It's peculiar. I won't be abandoning them any time soon. One only needs to look to Ligeti, Dutilleux, or even as far back as Debussy to know there's no reason why they can't continue to sound fresh.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Speaking of woodwinds, maybe this is a good place to air a thought I had tonight. Why exactly have woodwinds become so sidelined in scores? Some people will tell you that it's because they're finicky and "hard to write for" and most modern composers are simply not skilled enough to reach the mystic heights of woodwind orchestration mastery... buttttttt, I think there's something else to it. Bruckheimer didn't excise them from POTC because Debney couldn't write for them... no, is there something inherent to the sound of woodwinds that "dates" music in a way that strings or brass for some reason don't? Why do they scream "classical" while the rest of the orchestra doesn't?

That's a great question, probably deserving its own thread.

Fuck... I don't know. Well maybe I do - it might be something something to do with woodwinds not gelling with the synth patches/sound design prevalent in modern action-thriller film scores. Maybe it's because out of all of the sections, they're the furthest from the current 'pop aesthetic.' Maybe it's because they're so earthy and human...

[KK 3,307]

A good question indeed.

Don't think the answer is it "dates" the music. Just look at all the minimalists who've used woodwinds to more modern effect.

Maybe its the idea that woodwinds simply stray too far from the current homoginization of sound. Its too striking a colour, too "obvious". Strings and brass are safe, familiar (even in the pop aesthetic as Sharky points out), and when written the right way, it can go on without drawing attention to itself.

Woodwinds add a sort of life to it that can music a more dynamic entity of its own, and maybe thats just not what filmmakers want right now...

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

And maybe the pop thing is a big reason why. Strings and brass have found their way into all sorts of music, and so they're familiar and more palatable. But when's the last time you heard a contrabassoon on the radio?

[RedBard 71]

A good question indeed.

Don't think the answer is it "dates" the music. Just look at all the minimalists who've used woodwinds to more modern effect.

Maybe its the idea that woodwinds simply stray too far from the current homoginization of sound. Its too striking a colour, too "obvious". Strings and brass are safe, familiar (even in the pop aesthetic as Sharky points out), and when written the right way, it can go on without drawing attention to itself.

Woodwinds add a sort of life to it that can music a more dynamic entity of its own, and maybe thats just not what filmmakers want right now...

I have to agree. I don't think the woodwinds "date" the music, either.

By that logic, Le Sacre du Printemps would be antiquated. I'm still hypnotized by that single- and double-reed party at the start.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Stravinsky was a soulless purveyor of cheap trickery, more interested in being remembered as "innovative" than musically honest. The Rite grates on the ears like so much pseudo-modernist dreck. One can only applaud the riotous audience at the premiere for their rejection of such a mockery of music.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,542]

I respectfully disagree. Possibly my favourite film and I do love the music but there is a task it fails at and that is helping to tell the story. Perhaps that's impossible as a its a very complicated tale. But there are no musical developments at all. Just a collection of beautiful synchronisations . Yes the blue danube works wonders with the space station. Lux Aeterna fits perfectly with the moon shuttle. Katchachrian's achingly desolate adagio is so perfect for Pooles aimless jog . But no story...more a collection . As north lamented how on earth could he compete !....

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What Kubrick's choice of music for "2001" (especially "The Blue Danube") does is to help take something wonderful and extraordinary, such as space travel,and turn it into something workmanlike, and mundane.

It's the equivalent of elevator muzak. It's an in-joke, on a monumental scale, which is lost on most "ooh, aah!" viewers!

It fits Kubrick's vision perfectly.

[RedBard 71]

Stravinsky was a soulless purveyor of cheap trickery, more interested in being remembered as "innovative" than musically honest. The Rite grates on the ears like so much pseudo-modernist dreck. One can only applaud the riotous audience at the premiere for their rejection of such a mockery of music.

Oh, you mean like Penderecki, the one-shot wonder of so-called "innovative" music? Threnody for the Victims of Hiroshima is an 8 1/2 minute aural root canal operation. Good thing those victims of Hiroshima were dead... so their ears wouldn't be subjected to that travesty that Penderecki dared to call music.

If you can't tell by now, I'm using Poe's Law.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,542]

If I may add to what you have said:

1) And there's nothing wrong with film-making being a business first. Art and commerce have historically gotten along with each other. However, it takes an especially creative musical mind to create an original score that will become associated with that film and nothing else. Sadly, for the most part (in your words), "Styles associated with successful films will inevitably be imitated and propagated." I swear, if I hear another horror film score with scratching violins sul ponti or sul tasto with a rapid crescendi to a cutoff...

2) Not to mention that there's nothing wrong with stepping back and saying "Hey, everyone. Remember a good old-fashioned simple story? Why don't we make one of those?" Mainstream sci-fi movies of the 60s and 70s like 2001 and The Andromeda Strain were heavy to watch. Hence we got Star Wars: an epic space adventure about a group of rebels toppling a powerful galactic empire in the vein of Flash Gordon, only more serious and less campy. Of course, this isn't to say that those films weren't elevated by their respective scores.

3) Wherever did he get the idea in the first place that the two scores were even remotely similar?

3) Well, they do feature the same 12 notes. That's pretty similar.

[RedBard 71]

If I may add to what you have said:

1) And there's nothing wrong with film-making being a business first. Art and commerce have historically gotten along with each other. However, it takes an especially creative musical mind to create an original score that will become associated with that film and nothing else. Sadly, for the most part (in your words), "Styles associated with successful films will inevitably be imitated and propagated." I swear, if I hear another horror film score with scratching violins sul ponti or sul tasto with a rapid crescendi to a cutoff...

2) Not to mention that there's nothing wrong with stepping back and saying "Hey, everyone. Remember a good old-fashioned simple story? Why don't we make one of those?" Mainstream sci-fi movies of the 60s and 70s like 2001 and The Andromeda Strain were heavy to watch. Hence we got Star Wars: an epic space adventure about a group of rebels toppling a powerful galactic empire in the vein of Flash Gordon, only more serious and less campy. Of course, this isn't to say that those films weren't elevated by their respective scores.

3) Wherever did he get the idea in the first place that the two scores were even remotely similar?

3) Well, they do feature the same 12 notes. That's pretty similar.

Wow. 12 notes out of a sea of thousands?

How could I have been so deaf? One is literally is ripping off the other.

[Naïve Old Fart 9,542]

Do I detect a hint of sarcasm, 85?

[RedBard 71]

Who are you talking to?

[Wojo 2,453]

You, you made a yummy sound.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

And maybe the pop thing is a big reason why. Strings and brass have found their way into all sorts of music, and so they're familiar and more palatable. But when's the last time you heard a contrabassoon on the radio?

Exactly. Synths playing sawtooth/ramp waves, sine/triangle and square/pulse waves and all their filtered, waveshaped, phase shifted, comb filtered varieties have taken over from the woodwinds. They are louder, cleaner and more aggressive.

I don't agree with that BTW. I think the answer lies with distorted ww sections - like 8 contrabass flutes (which I've never heard/seen in a single film score), 4 subcontabass flutes, 8 contrabass clarinets, 4 subcontrabass clarinets and so on.

Here's Hans Zimmer's take (from VI Control):

I believe I have more scores featuring wood winds than not: Driving miss Daisy, As Good as it gets, Sherlock, LoneRanger and yes, even the dreaded Pearl Harbour is drenched in them.

But for some scores it's fun to leave out the traditional woods and replace them with things like penny whistles, Duduks, Nays, etc,...it's the one place you can make great color shifts in the orchestra. Beyond Rangoon, Lionking and Last Samurai comes to mind.

But I do try to avoid those hackneyed flute runs. And I have a fear of the piccolo. Loudest instrument in the orchestra. Trying to tame that on "thin red line" wasn't easy..

But my favorite dread lineup at the moment is 4 bassoons, 4 Contrabass bassoons, and the same in clarinets. That's a bass section!

[RedBard 71]

You, you made a yummy sound.

I didn't make a yummy sound.

(In a basement somewhere in a castle): RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGHHH!

[Gnome in Plaid 219]

The thing is, "dissonance" is being used as such a generic template these days. As many have pointed out above, it's not so much the matter of lacking dissonance as it is the matter of the lack of experimentation. The kind of dissonance you heard the Polish (a la Penderecki) do has become the stock sound for horror films. It's like every horror film has the same variation of slashing, piano crashes, plucking, etc, as if they're all just VSToptions to pick from on a computer (which I'm sure there are programs for). There are only a few composers who take that approach as an art form of its own, and that may be because the changing attitudes of the medium don't encourage upcoming composers to explore that field more.

There's still some excellent horror music being written - Alain Mayrand's Comforting Skin comes to mind in recent years. Generally speaking, ScreamWorks has a pretty impressive catalogue. As for most horror movie music sounding like VST options, well, weep:

http://8dio.com/instrument/cage-brass/

I don't agree with that BTW. I think the answer lies with distorted ww sections - like 8 contrabass flutes (which I've never heard/seen in a single film score), 4 subcontabass flutes, 8 contrabass clarinets, 4 subcontrabass clarinets and so on.

Here's Hans Zimmer's take (from VI Control):

I believe I have more scores featuring wood winds than not: Driving miss Daisy, As Good as it gets, Sherlock, LoneRanger and yes, even the dreaded Pearl Harbour is drenched in them.

But for some scores it's fun to leave out the traditional woods and replace them with things like penny whistles, Duduks, Nays, etc,...it's the one place you can make great color shifts in the orchestra. Beyond Rangoon, Lionking and Last Samurai comes to mind.

But I do try to avoid those hackneyed flute runs. And I have a fear of the piccolo. Loudest instrument in the orchestra. Trying to tame that on "thin red line" wasn't easy..

But my favorite dread lineup at the moment is 4 bassoons, 4 Contrabass bassoons, and the same in clarinets. That's a bass section!

Two thoughts: 1. Zimmer himself has written some great wind pieces. His protégés on the other hand...

2. Does anybody know of a sample library that has a contrabass flute? I've been writing some flute choir pieces and have just used Sibelius' warm pad in the mockups.

[KK 3,307]

Yeah, Alain Mayrand has written some lovely stuff, especially for Comforting Skins.

But he's practically unknown unfortunately, and is a nobody in the face of Hollywood.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

LOL the dreaded Pearl Harbor. What a fun guy.

Not familiar with a sample library that has a contrabass flute. Best to create one yourself! Over the past few months I've come to the stupefying conclusion that all sample libraries actually suck. Even the madly overpriced VSL shit is so inflexible... sigh. Jeremy Soule needs to sell his libraries.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I thought you were raving about modelling?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yeah and I got turned off of that just as soon as I discovered it.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed on this front, for the moment.

I think there might be hope in the basics. Logic's stuff and fuckin' GPO.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Yeah and I got turned off of that just as soon as I discovered it.

What was the matter with it?

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Flexible, but soulless. So you can either have fine control (modeling), or some semblance of humanity (sampling), but not both.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Work harder and hire an orchestra.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Already have a few times. I like to be able to create a "performance" on my own though.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

I'd like not to, but I'll probably have to. Just need a new computer first.

[RedBard 71]

Yeah and I got turned off of that just as soon as I discovered it.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed on this front, for the moment.

I think there might be hope in the basics. Logic's stuff and fuckin' GPO.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with going back to basics. I still use GPO for my woodwind samples.

I'd say that the biggest problem with sample libraries right now is the filtering process required to capture samples in the first place. The quality of the instrument's sound is reduced in the process of getting said samples, and we the consumers are stuck with the leftovers.

Speaking of which, can anyone here recommend a decent saxophone VST?

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Heard good things about this.

http://www.samplemodeling.com/en/products_saxes.php

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Yeah and I got turned off of that just as soon as I discovered it.

I'm at a loss as to how to proceed on this front, for the moment.

I think there might be hope in the basics. Logic's stuff and fuckin' GPO.

Hey, there's nothing wrong with going back to basics. I still use GPO for my woodwind samples.

I have mixed feelings about GPO. The principle of it is brilliant and hasn't yet been matched by any other sample library that I'm aware of. The principle being simply that you're given multiple "players" from which to build sections. Everything else limits you to static section samples or single solo samples. The downsides are... these sections are limited in size (that is, I can't have four bass clarinets or six bass trombones, that kind of thing (well, I can, but not if I ever want to have them all in unison (blasted phasing))), the non-solo flutes are weirdly missing vibrato which is maddening and totally fucks with one's plans for that section, and ultimately, well, the samples are just not that great to begin with. Very inflexible. They work well at one dynamic layer. It's impossible to go from a warm ppp to a bright fff with anything, brass, strings, whatever. The woodwinds are the high point of the library after a bit of very careful EQing.

If a library with the quality of, say, VSL applied this section-building idea to their product, that would be most ideal, if predictably wildly overpriced.

So for the moment I'm going to try the following: Logic's EXS24 stuff for strings, percussion, keyboards, harps, and flutes (of course, deprived of the ability to make a real section), and GPO for the other winds, solo strings, and more percussion, keyboards, harps, etc. Not sure what to do about brass. But I likely won't be wasting any more money on another library I end up hating.