OT...but still a musical question...

[Adoy 1]

I know there are a lot of folks here who know more about music than me, so I have a quick question for ya! What is the difference between a theme and a motif? Or is there a difference at all?

Like in SW, there's Leia's Theme, but the droids only get a motif. If any one can explain this, I'd greatly appreciate it. And remember, you are talking to someone who knows NOTHING about music except how to push the play button on the CD player!!

Many thanks in advance!!!!!

Mousehunt - Silvestri

Great bassoon music!!

[Morn 8]

There is no real difference. Basically all it is is a theme is long and a motif is short, like say only 5 seconds or so. But when it's leitmotif, you can call motif's themes as well.

[Wickenstein 0]

I always think of a theme as a main musical statement that goes several variations over the course of the work. Then I always think of a motif as a shorter theme that doesn't really vary a whole lot. Maybe it's only used a few times or just within one cue. I think it basically comes down to importance. Luke has a theme in Starwars, Boba Fett has a motif.

[EvanED 1]

Jaws has a motif. Probably the most famous motif (at least in the US) ever written.

[Marian Schedenig 8,252]

Yeah, length is the basic difference. The Theme from Jaws is mainly a motif, though there's a theme in it, too (that string melody). The 5-note thing from CE3K is a motif, too. I guess you can't exactly tell when a motif stops being a motif and becomes a theme though.

Marian - who thinks most 4 note motifs sound a lot like the Dies Irae.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Marian - who thinks most 4 note motifs sound a lot like the Dies Irae.

:roll:

Stefancos- who thinks most 4 note motifs sound to a lot like Goldsmith's Borg Theme.

[EvanED 1]

The real question then is, 'does the Goldsmith Borg theme sound like Dies Irae?'

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The real question then is, 'does the Goldsmiwidtorg theme sound like Dies Irae?'

And THAT sentence is coming from our spelling Nazi?

Stefancos- who wonders what version of Dies Irae Marian is talking about?

[jsawruk 0]

There is no real difference. Basically all it is is a theme is long and a motif is short, like say only 5 seconds or so. But when it's leitmotif, you can call motif's themes as well.

That is a false statement. There is a large compositional difference between a theme and a motif. Length does have something to do with it though. Generally, a motif will be a small rhythmic or melodic unit. Take for example, the opening motif of Beethoven's 5th, Movement 1. Four notes, and that it's it. That's an excellent example of a motif.

A theme, however, is a complete musical statement. Usually the motif is an incomplete statement. A theme can be made up of several motifs, but never can a motif ever contain a theme. Themes and their variants define the form of a piece. If the piece is a minuet for example, then it has two themes. Furthermore, both of these themes may be correlated by an underlying motif.

A leitmotif is different still. A leitmotif is ANY musical statement that is associated with something on stage/screen. Generally, leitmotifs are themes, but they can also be motifs. A good example of a leitmotif that is a theme is "The Force Theme", while the "Action Ostinato" (dotted 8th 16th dotted 8th 16th 16th 16th 16th 16th) is a motif.

[EvanED 1]

The real question then is, 'does the Goldsmiwidtorg theme sound like Dies Irae?'

And THAT sentence is coming from our spelling Nazi?

Stefancos- who wonders what version of Dies Irae Marian is talking about?

*That* sentence was a transmission error. I'm almost that bad at typing, but not quite. You got in there in the 30 seconds from when I first posted it until I saw and corrected it...

[Marian Schedenig 8,252]

Actually, the Borg theme is one of the few 4-note motifs that does NOT sound like the Dies Irae.

Stefancos- who wonders what version of Dies Irae Marian is talking about?

The ancient motif from the Gregorian Chants, as used by Berlioz in his Symphonie fantastique, Goldsmith in Poltergeist and Mephisto Waltz (though I believe there Goldsmith's use of the motif is a variation on Liszt's use of it), Williams (masterfully) in CE3K, and so on.

Marian - who loves Goldsmith's in-joke using of one of the Gremlins 2 motifs in Hollow Man.

[Adoy 1]

WOW!! Thanks to all who replied...I understand the whole thing much better now. I had a feeling the length might have something to do with it.

[Guest]

There is no real difference. Basically all it is is a theme is long and a motif is short, like say only 5 seconds or so. But when it's leitmotif, you can call motif's themes as well.

That is a false statement. There is a large compositional difference between a theme and a motif. Length does have something to do with it though. Generally, a motif will be a small rhythmic or melodic unit. Take for example, the opening motif of Beethoven's 5th, Movement 1. Four notes, and that it's it. That's an excellent example of a motif.

A theme, however, is a complete musical statement. Usually the motif is an incomplete statement. A theme can be made up of several motifs, but never can a motif ever contain a theme. Themes and their variants define the form of a piece. If the piece is a minuet for example, then it has two themes. Furthermore, both of these themes may be correlated by an underlying motif.

A leitmotif is different still. A leitmotif is ANY musical statement that is associated with something on stage/screen. Generally, leitmotifs are themes, but they can also be motifs. A good example of a leitmotif that is a theme is "The Force Theme", while the "Action Ostinato" (dotted 8th 16th dotted 8th 16th 16th 16th 16th 16th) is a motif.

Thank you very much. That's what I was planning to say but you did it sooner than me 8O

More seriously, I totally agree with this little explanation.

Hellgi

[Morn 8]

I was going to say something along the lines of a motif is never longer than 1 phrase (which doesn't have a set length), but thought it would be better to be more straight forward.

Also, doesn't the word theme in leitmotif also mean a motif/theme that stands for a character etc?

[jsawruk 0]

Also, doesn't the word theme in leitmotif also mean a motif/theme that stands for a character etc?

Yes, and that's exactly what my definition says. A leitmotif is ANY musical statement (theme, motif, phrase, period, sentence, melody, etc) associated extramusically with anything on screen/stage (character, mood, location, the past, the future, action, etc).

[Morn 8]

That's not what I ment, can't you call a motif a theme if it's leitmotif?

[jsawruk 0]

That's not what I ment, can't you call a motif a theme if it's leitmotif?

No, because a motif and a leitmotif are two very different terms. Even though they both contain the word "motif" does not make them related. A motif may be a leitmotif if it is associated with something on stage/screen. In such case, it is properly called a leitmotif and not a motif. Similarly, a theme may be a leitmotif, and must then also be called a leitmotif. Finally, a motif may never be called a theme. Theme and leitmotif are NOT synonyms, even though it is a very common mistake to use them interchangably (I do it, my music profs do it, etc.).

I'm sorry I'm being so precise about this, but you did ask the question. I think the correct textbook answer is what is best, so as to avoid confusion. For reference, I am using the term "leitmotif" as defined by Wagner, and I am using the terms "motif" and "theme" as used in many composition books, including Schoenberg's and Hindemith's.

[Adoy 1]

Ok, I'm lost again. I was under the impression that leimotif was a style of writing.

Isn't leimotif writing a different theme for different characters, kind of like Peter and the Wolf? There you have five or six different characters, each with a different theme played on different instruments.

Isn't that leimotif? A way of writing music rather than an actual type of music? :?:

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

This below is what I found in the dictionary. But what jsawrok said

makes perfect sense to me. Thanks.

Theme: 1. A phrase that serves as the subject, or melody

for a given work, as in a fugue, or sonata form.

Motif: A short musical idea, or melodic theme that runs

through a piece.

Motive: A short melodic or rhythmic pattern.

Leitmotif: "Leading Motive". Use of a musical phrase

to identify with a certain person, place or thing in a dramatic work,

especially an opera, usually repeated every time its referent appeared in

the work.

Yoda L. :alien:

[jsawruk 0]

Ok, I'm lost again.  I was under the impression that leimotif was a style of writing.

Isn't leimotif writing a different theme for different characters, kind of like Peter and the Wolf?  There you have five or six different characters, each with a different theme played on different instruments.  

Isn't that leimotif?  A way of writing music rather than an actual type of music?   :?:

Um, no and here's why: I can write leitmotifs that are baroque, romantic, classical, serial, minimal, jazz, rock, etc.... Those are styles of writing. Since a leitmotif can be a member of any style (or genre) or writing, then itself cannot be a style of writing. I wish I could explain more, but I'm very tired and proving (or disproving) this statement dives into complex logic which I cannot do right now. Let's just leave it as a postulate for now and come back later to it

[Adoy 1]

Well, don't strain...you answered the question just fine. I was just a little lost thats all.

Thanks again to all!! 8O

Who Framed Roger Rabbit