Williams Finally Is Clear With His Borrowings....

[SkyMaker 0]

It looks clear that Williams have full and deliberate intent by using the Dies Irae for ROTS. Plus, you can also tell there are a great deal of deliberate use of fire and damnation found in Verdi's requiem.

[Jeshopk 8]

Sorry, it's not the dies irae.

[SkyMaker 0]

Sorry, it's not the dies irae.

I understand that it's not the exact Dies Irae, but it's way too close for Williams to say, it was just a coincidence.

[Bowie 45]

Eh? It's soo NOT Verdi's Dies Irae. Or were you talking about someone else's Dies?

[Jeshopk 8]

Skymaker

Here are comparison midis I made for you:

Dies Irae:

http://www.composerarts.com/DiesIrae.mid

Battle of the Heroes:

http://www.composerarts.com/BotH.mid

People have said Close Encounters has the Dies Irae, as if nobody could use the first 4 notes ever again without it being considered a quote. There's a rule in the Patent world that you can't patent anything obvious. The same goes for music. Nobody can stake claim to a few obvious intervals.

[King Mark 3,631]

In any case,it's better than the Fellowship Theme.

K.M.Who thinks Williams might have come up with something like this for LotR.

[OrchDork 0]

I hear similarites between the two, from an intervallic standpoint, but nothing more. I think if Williams were to borrow Dies Irae, I'd imagine that he would quote it directly, or at least quote it in such a way that it is almost exact. I would imagine that Williams was inspired loosely by Dies Irae, but that's about it.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Skymaker

Here are comparison midis I made for you:

Dies Irae:

http://www.composerarts.com/DiesIrae.mid

Battle of the Heroes:

http://www.composerarts.com/BotH.mid

People have said Close Encounters has the Dies Irae, as if nobody could use the first 4 notes ever again without it being considered a quote. There's a rule in the Patent world that you can't patent anything obvious. The same goes for music. Nobody can stake claim to a few obvious intervals.

Close Encounters is full of the Dies Irae. Dies Irae is one of the most famous of all representative melodies, dating back before the 14th Century. There's no denying that Williams uses it intentionally in Close Encounters. Jeshopk, I have nothing but respect for you and your music (which frankly impresses me no end!), but to suggest that Williams use of the Dies Irae in Close Encounters is accidental is a little insulting to our man Williams. Dies Irae is often taken as meaning "Day of Wrath", or also "Day of reckoning". Williams uses it in Close Encounters as being representative of the day of contact with the aliens. The whole movie moves towards this specific date and place, as does the score. Other composers use the Dies Irae simply to mean "death", such as Rachmaninov. Many film score composers use it in this context also. Almost every song in Nightmare Before Christmas works the Dies Irae somewhere into the melody. Using the Dies Irae in this day and age isn't considered as ripping something off. Rather it is one of the most famous representtive melodies available for all to use. Williams has done so very effectively, and very intentionally, in past scores.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Oops. I have just re-read your post and I take back my attack Jeshopk. I didn't read your post properly the first time. Looks like you were saying exactly what I have just written! Sorry...

[batmanand 0]

Sorry but coming from a non-musician, I ould not hear any similarity at all between the two midi clips. Can someone tell me how they are supposedly related?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Not bad, but I prefer The Fellowship theme over both these pieces.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

It looks clear that Williams have full and deliberate intent by using the Dies Irae for ROTS. Plus, you can also tell there are a great deal of deliberate use of fire and damnation found in Verdi's requiem.

you got all that from 30 seconds,

[tpigeon 3]

Not bad, but I prefer The Fellowship theme over both these pieces.

You mean the Back to the Future theme?

Ted

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Don't be silly.

[Hitch 57]

I agree with Steef that silly is the best policy here.

[Jeshopk 8]

Close Encounters is full of the Dies Irae. Dies Irae is one of the most famous of all representative melodies, dating back before the 14th Century. There's no denying that Williams uses it intentionally in Close Encounters. Jeshopk, I have nothing but respect for you and your music (which frankly impresses me no end!), but to suggest that Williams use of the Dies Irae in Close Encounters is accidental is a little insulting to our man Williams.  

The first 5 notes of the CE3K motif in question are indeed the same as the Dies Irae, but we wouldn't know if it was a deliberate quote unless Williams said it were. Although the Dies Irae is important, most quotes of it are closer than the first 5 notes. Its not really a remarkable 5 notes, and is in fact quite elementary. I wouldn't be surprised if it was a quote, but I also wouldn't be surprised if it wasn't. There are a few supporting reasons it could be seen as its own thing, and that Williams just came up with it like he does so many other simple motifs. One fact supporting this is that the first 3 notes are before the downbeat in the CE3K motif. The downbeat is on the 4th note. Second, the full motif is an 8 note ascending and descending pattern. It the second half is a repeat of the first half, modulated down, with the intervals changed. The second half shares no intervalic relationship with the dies irae, supporting the idea that the ascent and descent of the notes is more important than the intervals matching the dies irae. Since the motif is divided in 2, the 5th note is not a continuation of the "dies irae" theme, but a repeating and modulation downward of the first 4 notes. Lastly, I don't think 4 or 5 notes can definitifely be seen as a quotation without the disclosure of the author, regardless of the cultural significance of the 5 notes, especially when the notes themselves share no variance in length. For me to always assign those 4 or 5 notes in my mind as "dies irae", would be to deny that I or any composer could freely compose them (or any few notes from the dies irae) without considering their historical implications. And I think we need to remove some historical implications in order for freedom of expression. This goes for Jaws as well. I think too many composers have avoided writing the half step ostinato, which before Jaws was an elementary, non associated tool, for the mere fact that they thought it would sound like Jaws. The result is that composers only use the half step ostinato in reference to sharks. I think this puts too much importance on a single piece of music, and inhibits true expression, and reduces the tools of music.

Like I said, the CE3K motif COULD be a clever morph of a snippet of the dies irae, but unless it were a more complete representation of the statement, or unless Williams himself has remarked that it was his intention, we can not afford to give 4 or 5 notes from history such importance without inhibiting our own sense of invention and expression as composers.

[scissorhands 16]

Not bad, but I prefer The Fellowship theme over both these pieces.

You mean the Back to the Future theme?

No, he means the main theme of "The Greatest Story Ever Told".

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I'm sorry, whaaaa?

[Hitch 57]

Alfred Newman's crypt hasn't stopped shaking since that last comment.

Hitch, who thinks A.N.'s score to TGSET theme is a blatant rip-off of Barber's Adagio for Strings. Now he can spin all he wants now.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

Like I said, the CE3K motif COULD be a clever morph of a snippet of the dies irae, but unless it were a more complete representation of the statement, or unless Williams himself has remarked that it was his intention, we can not afford to give 4 or 5 notes from history such importance without inhibiting our own sense of invention and expression as composers.

I disagree here. Bach often wrote wonderful pieces based on the notes BACH from his name. Other composers have also done this in honour of Bach. Shostakovich wrote pieces based on DSCH for the same reason. Using a fragment like this in a piece is like opening a million doors. It's up to you which one you go through, and what you do once you've gone through! You mentioned earlier that Williams uses the first five notes of the Dies Irae. I would actually say he uses the first four only. (Literally the "Dies Irae" from the chant). He then follows this with a modified repetition starting one note lower, thus developing it himself. Most composers only use the first 4 notes as a starting point, and then develop it themselves. I agree with you that it would be inhibitive if composers always tried to fit the entire "Dies Irae" (which is about 50 notes) into a piece, but if the first 4 notes only are used as a starting point then the possibilities for invention and development are almost limitless. Listen again to the Nightmare Before Christmas score. Even if you hate the music, you have to admit that Elfman's different uses of the 4-note motif (representing the ghoulishness of halloween town) are quite brilliant. In "Making Christmas" it's used repetitively as a sort of ostinato. In the lyrical song that Jack sings it appears as the first four notes of a gorgeous melody. By using the familiar Dies Irae as the basis for a piece of music composers have almost endless possibilities. I've used it myself in a string quartet as a sort of joke. It was a quartet for the wedding day of a couple of friends of mine. I worked the Dies Irae into the happy celebration music as an "in-joke". If you're not listening out for it you may not even notice it, but it's there saying "You're getting married! The day of wrath approaches!" I have a weird sense of humour. Hehe.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

There is also at least one point in the CE score where that motif starts on a downbeat, with equal length to each note, played by horns ... plus tubular bells i think, but I could be wrong. But either way, the horns play very brassy and bell-like, and in that place, it even sounds a lot like a "death toll" or "warth" or whatever bell. I'm sure it's intentional.

[pixie_twinkle 48]

I know the part you mean. Unfortunately my CD is in England and I'm in Ohio so I can't look up the track name. Oh well. I think it might be called Nocturnal Pursuit, but I can't remember.