stewdog1 50 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Call me crazy but for some reason, the Battle of the Heroes sounds like it could be some mutated version of the Force Theme. I'm going to have to listen to it more.Has anybody else noticed this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Nope, sorry. I haven't heard anything in BotF that really reminds me of any previous themes, which is unusual for a major prequel theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo 0 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 I did hear a bit of force theme somewhere in Battle of the Heroes with the choir Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Duel of the Fates is an altered Force Theme and Luke's Theme. BotH's relationships to other themes are much more abstract to the point where they may not be related, but it seems unlikely Williams would eschew that when every other theme is related to every other in tons of ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry B 50 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Duel of the Fates... altered Luke's Theme... sorry, but I can't see ANY resemblance there. Sure you're not digging too deeply for symbolism? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 , = lower octaverelationships are grouped like (this) [this] or "this"Luke's Theme: (do [so fa-mi-re]) do' so...Duel of the Fates: [re-mi-fa so] (la, [so fa-mi-re])...Force Theme: mi, (la ti do-re do mi,) mi, [la ti do mi, do la] mi re...Duel of the Fates: [(la-ti-do re mi,) (re do-ti-la)]...and for good measureLuke's Theme: (do [so "fa)-mi-re] do' so"...Force Theme: so, [re mi fa-so] fa so, so, re mi fa so, fa (re la' so)... so, re mi fa re la fa re' re "fa-mi-re la' fa" re so, so, re. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Damo 0 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 This topic is about Battle of the Heroes....not really about Duel of the Fates or Luke's Theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 We really need Roald's input on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 , = lower octaverelationships are grouped like (this) [this] or "this"Luke's Theme: (do [so fa-mi-re]) do' so...Duel of the Fates: [re-mi-fa so] (la, [so fa-mi-re])...Force Theme: mi, (la ti do-re) do mi, mi, [la ti do mi, do la] mi re...Duel of the Fates: [(la-ti-do re) so, (re do-ti-la)]...and for good measureLuke's Theme: (do [so "fa)-mi-re] do' so"...Force Theme: so, [re mi fa-so] fa so, so, re mi fa so, fa (re la' so)... so, re mi fa re la fa re' re "fa-mi-re la' fa" re so, so, re.Sorry, I don't see this. Those phrases you mark there are much too general to be considered quotes (or even hints) of themes. Besides, you seem to shift the key of each piece so the parts you want to fit do fit. (Luke's Theme in original key is in Bb major, DotF in original key in e minor... by shifting those to C major and d minor, respectively, you create a note-for-note relationship that's not really there. those four descending notes don't sound like they're meant to be the same since they have a different role in each key.To be considered quotes/hints of a previous theme, they'd have to include a noticable excerpt that defines the theme. If I play you [so fa mi re] rhythmically indifferent, would you say "sure, that's the Star Wars theme"? I don't think so. A defining excerpt from the MT/Luke's theme would be more like (^=8va up) [fa mi re ^do so]Otherwise the last two bars from my "Anakin's Dream" excerpt (see "Themes of ROTS" thread) would be a sure hint of the "Accidental Tourist" theme, and we can agree that that would be BS, right? Those notes are far too general to be considered a specific theme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Crichton 4 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 We really need Roald's input on this. LOL I don't hear anything from previous themes in DotF either. I guess it's appropriate that DotF and BotH are like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Umm... riiight. I never said these themes have quotes of each other in them. That defeats the purpose of coming up with a new theme. Only once you've GOT a new theme do you quote it against, before or after another.I was merely describing the subtle relationships inherent within each theme, some of which are well-known amongst the Star Wars thematic ouevre, some not so known. I was describing what I feel are structural similarities indicating to some extent the process in which Williams came up with those themes. Like with Anakin's Theme or Across the Stars, he sits at his piano and thinks through what themes already in existence could be manipulated to form a new theme that is sufficiently separate, and not a simple quote.As for Duel of the Fates, to me he's extending the "descending triplet" idea from Luke's, Leia's and Force Themes, first going up and then going down, sort of a battle of up vs. down, in the melodic contour. The up-part handily resembles the start of the Force theme.I only shifted the solfege to show the intervalic relationships more clearly. I don't mention the key at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 I only shifted the solfege to show the intervalic relationships more clearly. I don't mention the key at all.Naturally. So what's your problem?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
diskobolus 3 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 You can't just say that two themes that share a four-note ascending line of a scale are connected motivically. It's simply too common of a device. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Okay. Go and write a new theme depicting a battle of wills, that is a unique entity in itself, but based on the Force Theme as though the battle is being influenced to some degree by the Force. Compare with Duel of the Fates.Or forget it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Yeeeaaah! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 That Force theme similarity you now mention is much more there (and likely intentional) than the Luke's Theme reference you stated before. Though I think the Luke thing is very far-fetched, the Force theme reference could well be, as both is at the beginning of the respective theme and the similarity is much more apparent. I also see a relationship of DotF and BotH in the rising and falling back figure starting from the base note; In BotH this is much more centered around that note, whereas in DotF it strays more (a fourth) in both directions. This could be a means to portray the more intimate and centered quality of the Ani/Obi battle.I don't think you're completely on the wrong tree here, just that some of your connections are too far-fetched. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 I think the problem comes in trying to get inside the mind of Williams. There's a big difference between demonstrating a similarity and saying with any confidence that it was an intentional attempt by him to incorporate another theme. To the extent there are similarities, unless really obvious, I generally assume it was an accident. I don’t think we can be so confident in describing JW’s process in coming up with DotF unless we’ve heard him speak to that. And as far as I know, he hasn't in this case.Depending on how wide a lens we use, we can find similarities with all sorts of things. BotH and the Force theme both have a quasi-religious feeling to them but as far as the notes go, there’s very little similarity and no reason to believe he was trying to connect the two, IMO.- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Well, as I just wrote, I think between DotF and BotH, there IS a reason to believe this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 I’m not ruling it out, its possible. Point is we’re still left to speculate. My own observations ofhis craft tell me he probably didn’t try to make those connections on purpose. This is somebodythat used Leia’s theme when Ben died just for practical effect of having something sweeping. Andin that case he actually spoke to it so I can say it with confidence. I don’t think he intellectualizesthose kind of thematic connections to the degree that you have but I could be wrong. - Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 1, 2005 Share Posted May 1, 2005 Like I said, when there's a similarity to some degree, and not just 4 (general) notes in common someplace in the middle of a theme, I consider it likely, if it's too general, I don't. Of course all we can do is speculate, unless a relationship is really obvious. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bowie 45 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 What do you think about the celeste at Birth of the Twins 0:52 - Darth Vader's Theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 You mean the 4 notes that form the end of the A section of the Imp. March? Could be, it's very similar. But again it's hard to say if it's intentional, as it's just 4 notes that arpeggiate a chord.Depends on the context. Hedwig's Theme ends almost the exact same way Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sandor 799 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Please close this thread...Don't you guys know already that John Williams only wrote TWO pieces of music???!!! The Emperor's Theme and the Hook Prologue!!EVERY piece of music the man he written is a CARBON COPY of one of those two tracks! Come to think of it: I just listened to the Hook Prologue.... I HEAR THE EMPEROR's THEME IN THAT ONE TOO!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Roald, I hope you can hear The Emperor's theme in Enter Lord Vader? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Do you hear the Theme in "The Emperor enters Lord Vader"? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Oh my! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Oh my! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted May 2, 2005 Share Posted May 2, 2005 Oh my! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 Brings a whole new meaning to the command, "Rise!" Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ChrisAfonso 188 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 "Do not hesitate" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 On that Wal-Mart interview download, Williams states that there are quotes of Duel of the Fates in Battle of the Heroes. Anyone hear it?Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,810 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 "Do not hesitate""Show no mercy"Vader-> <- Palpatine Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,810 Posted May 3, 2005 Share Posted May 3, 2005 On that Wal-Mart interview download, Williams states that there are quotes of Duel of the Fates in Battle of the Heroes. Anyone hear it?Ted LOL Williams is freaker that us then.But well if he says so it must be true Maybe in the unreleased parts...Or maybe as always he has mistaken things. May he meant the Force theme? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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