General Technical Music Discussion

[pianoman1 0]

I'm writing a score for a concert band. I am done with the score now and am wondering the following:

I wrote the piece with all the notes in relation to a piano, (thats my insterment). I know that other insterments in a concert band have different notes than a piano (for example a Bb would be a C on the trumpet). I was wondering what the transposition of the other insterments are. The insterments are: Flute, Clarinet, Alto-Saxophone, Tenor-Sax, Bari-Sax, Trumpet, Trombone, and Timpani.

Also, How can you put on a new piece only 1 track with Score Writer. For example, on piano sheet music there are 2 tracks, usually a bass cleff and treble cleff. Since I'm going to need to write sheet music for the musicians performing the piece i only need 1 track. however, when you open a new piece with ScoreWriter, it starts with 2 tracks instead of 1. I can't figure out how to do it.....

Thankyou for your help. I apologize if there is any confusion about what im trying to say.

[Gamecube 0]

I hope this link has what your looking for.

http://www.musictheory.halifax.ns.ca/trans...nsposition.html

As for the other problem I have no idea.

[pianoman1 0]

Thanx alot!!!

That site is great!

I'm still not sure though about the track thing... still working on it

Thanx alot!

[Guest]

No offense man, but if you don't know this info for yourself, you shouldn't be writing for concert band.

I was in your spot 5 years ago too. I tried writing without knowing anything about the instruments I was writing for. But...despite what my teachers told me...I was arrogant...and didnt' bother to learn.

However...now that I know a good deal about every instrument I write for, my music is infinately better.

My advice:

Go out...get a theory book...one that really goes deep into instrument history...which range is best...which tone comes from a part of that instruments range.

For example...could you tell me (without looking at anything) what a clarinet's comfort range is? How about the part of it's range that has the richest tone?

I'm not meaning to sound like an ass. But seriously...it's for your own good. Learn about the instruments before writing. So if you only know about the piano so far...write for only piano.

If you would like to hear some of my writing before and after I knew the instruments like the back of my hand...I'd be happy to let you listen.

Again...sorry if I sound mean...but for the good of your own writing...take a break from writing and learn!

[bruckhorn 106]

A little harsh, there, but right.

It'll save you a lot of work if you have a better idea about what you're attempting to do. When I wrote a piece for brass quartet, I asked the lead trumpet what kind of range he wanted. His reply was "the higher the better." He was a professional player and I had heard him on recordings really make his horn scream, so I took him up on the challange. The second trumpet saw my "finished" version and had me lower the lead trumpet line a fifth. Back to the compositional process: I had to comply while minding where the other voices were being taken-- I didn't want the trombone line to drop below its range. When the lead tumpet saw the revised final version of the piece, he said it was too high for him. It was the day before it was to be played at my sister's wedding. I was up all night revising it, again.

I learned my lesson well. A couple of months later I was writing another piece for brass quartet for another wedding and only had to do it once. (Though the trombone player had trouble with off-beat triplet figures...)

Learn the instraments. Clarinet and Oboe have similar ranges, but the Clarinet sounds better low while the oboe sounds better high (but not too high).

From the sounds of it, the score is complete. I hope you don't run into too many problems. And be prepared to not like some parts of it. You'll probably end up rescoring sections-- consider it part of the process. And listen to the players. Once a clarinetist came up to me and suggested that a Clarinet in A would be better than the "standard" Bb. He then played a couple of passages and I agreed. I went home and changed the score.

But, uh, don't do a Lucas on it, okay?

Peace

bruckhorn

[Akipk 0]

I don't use scorewriter, but I'm thinking if you go to the instrument list, you may be able to find appropriate adjustment.There also may be something underneath preferences. If you already have the instuments, I don't see why you need the various tracks anyway, unless you're talking about staff systems. Now that is something I could help you on.

[pianoman1 0]

ok i agree with the advise about having really no idea about the insterments... so in that case, what would be a good theory book where i could learn this stuff? I have until September, so i probably will want to rescore it after i learn, but like what would be the Name and Author of a Good Theory book like you (mainly JohnMusic in a vivid description ) mentioned. Thanxalot for all your help and advise!!!

(BTW - i could never pull a Lucas, only he could do that hehehehe)

[Ren 77]

well, all this stuff in here is really great. I hope no one takes offense to it. It is really true that you have to know the medium you write for well.

for theory books......let see, if you are a piano player you already have a good background on theory so I would suggest a scoring/arranging/orchestration book. That will give you the best ranges, doublings, etc.

[pianoman1 0]

Any names of books though...???

[Ren 77]

there's a decent, down to earth one by john cavacas. look him up on borders.com

[Akipk 0]

There's an orchestration book by Walter Piston which is really good, but Adler's the Study of Orchestration is my favourite. It might be a bit expensive though.

[SkyMaker 0]

No offense man, but if you don't  know this info for yourself, you shouldn't be writing for concert band.  

My advice:

  Again...sorry if I sound mean...but for the good of your own writing...take a break from writing and learn!

Sorry John, but I think that's the worst piece advice of you can give to a composing student. I'm sorry, but you really don't know what you're talking about, and even though I see what you're trying to advise, but it's very poorly made.

Here's why.

The best way of learning to write for anything, whether it's your own instrument or for an ensemble is to WRITE! Sure this guy may not know his instruments, transpose, range, etc, but to say that he needs to learn them first is like saying that you need to know how to spell first before you write a novel.

But the fact is that, this is the best way to learn instruments, but writing for it. Then you learn all the mistakes you did, and all the stupid things that you did that didn't work at all. When it comes to developing craft such as writing music, there is no other way to learn then to jump in and learn to swim. The mistakes learnt are powerful lessons.

So, Pianoman, go and compose for brass band, or for full orchestra, and you'll learn from making mistakes.

Still, I do agree with you, Johnmusic, to take up studies on orchestration.

There are so many books on orchestrations, 2 of which have been mentioned already. But here are others I've also studied.

1) Anatomy of the orchestra - Norman Del Mar

2) Gordon Jacob

3) Treatise on Instrumentation - Berlioz (Get the one Edited by Richard Strauss)

4) Orchestral Technique - Gordon Jacob

5) Principles on Orchestration - Rimsky-Korsakov

As already mentioned, Samuel Adler's - in which there are 5 accompanying CDs you can learn from, which are very essential! But the CDs are expensive, and sold separately. Having the CDs help you hear what you are seeing on the book, and it's a very powerful learning tool when you're able to hear it.

Walter Piston is a good one too!

Again, I've gone through all the ones listed above, and they're all good. Although each of them goes in depth, but having them all is great, due to each of them focuses slightly on different details.

Go to your local libraries and check if they have any of these scores. If not, then go to your University library.

One last powerful learning tool is, to obtain a recording of the type of arrangement for band you want to do, get the score of it, and use it as a model for your own arrangement. Every composer who had ever lived used examples of existing pieces to learn from. No one has ever been immuned by it, no even our beloved John Williams.

Ravel has said,"Chose a model, and follow him". He obviously chose Debussy as his model.

Don't forget, you learn by doing!

[Guest]

I simply meant he needed to stop writing for Concert Band and write for piano more...to explore. As he is writing for piano, he should also be becoming aware of the concert band instruments.

And no...it's not bad advice...because the same advice was given to me by my teacher...and you know what? It worked like a charm. So if it worked...it's not bad advice.

And please don't insist I don't know what I'm talking about when you haven't even really talked to me...it seems a little premature don't you think?

[Ren 77]

SkyMaker,

You know, most of the posts I've ever read of yours have been degrading of others opinions and insisting yours is right. Maybe you just needed to think about what you wrote before you submitted it, maybe you really are that mean. I think that pianoman1 wanted people opinions on what books would help. We all just started giving him advice on how we personally feel the next step should be. We are all entitled to our own opinion without degrading someone elses. Obviously, Pianoman1 should keep writing. But it's obvious he needs to learn a lot more about the medium he's writing for if he wants it to be good. Some people think reading a book, then trying it out - fine. Some people think just doing it and learning from mistakes - fine. Some people think following a model - fine. Some people think stop writing and learn before you write - fine. Let pianoman1 decide which advice he wants to take. Don't make it for him. Just chill out. OK?

[Johnmusic 0]

Pianoman...

I'm not saying my way is the only way to go. Ren was right in saying that you are free to choose.

I'm simply offering up some experience on the table. It worked for me...it may not work for you.

Good luck with your writing!

[SkyMaker 0]

And please don't insist I don't know what I'm talking about when you haven't even really talked to me...it seems a little premature don't you think?

Perhaps it's a little premature, and I apologise.

What happens is that there are so many people who preach opinions as facts.

The way I see it, if someone who wants to write for a medium they have no idea about, they ought to just do it. Just for the fact they have the balls to even attempt is something that tells that they're open minded enough to give it a go, hence, sooner or later they'll hit it right on.

Elfman had no idea how to compose for a symphony orchestra when he agreed to do Batman. From his own words, he said he was, "Scared, shitless." Sure he had a lot of help, but I think it's a gutsy proposition to have agreed upon.

It's a no brainer that you learn by doing. As you know this applies to all sorts of ambitions.

You know, most of the posts I've ever read of yours have been degrading of others opinions and insisting yours is right. Maybe you just needed to think about what you wrote before you submitted it, maybe you really are that mean. I think that pianoman1 wanted people opinions on what books would help. We all just started giving him advice on how we personally feel the next step should be. We are all entitled to our own opinion without degrading someone elses. Some people think reading a book, then trying it out - fine. Some people think just doing it and learning from mistakes - fine. Some people think following a model - fine. Some people think stop writing and learn before you write - fine. Just chill out. OK?

I appreciate your comments, and sorry that I appear to be degrading. I am not mean, but when people make claims that are not well researched, highly opinionated that is presenting as true hardcore facts, then I tend to want to correct. Sure, it maybe taken that my comments are also opinions, but I try very hard to back it up. But then again, everything written by anyone are just opinions. And Ren, I have never insisted that I am right.

I take things much better if Johnmusic would say,"You might want to try to study the instruments first and get somewhat familiar with them, as this will help you when writing for band". But instead I read from Johnmusic,"No offense man, but if you don't know this info for yourself, you shouldn't be writing for concert band.....Again...sorry if I sound mean...but for the good of your own writing...take a break from writing and learn!"

To me this is bad advice. Sorry if anyone disagrees, but I don't think I am being opinionated here, only repeating thoughts we've all heard, which means instead of, "take a break from writing and learn!", it's, "learn by taking the time to write!".

The best way for pianoman1 to learn to write for band is to write for band, and he'll refer to the books as to how things work. It's a complete opposite of what Johnmusic said. But the thing is, I am not presenting thoughts that came from my personal opinions, as anyone who'll tell you, the best way of learning anything is to go and do it. Hence, my contradiction of Johmusic are based on everyday learning, not specified just to music.

So, when pianoman begins to write, he'll come across many problems, and he'll solve them by refering to the books, which will decipher for him as to ranges, transpositions, technical possibilities or impossibilities, etc.

Maybe I am taken as mean by contradicting you, Johnmusic. Perhaps my tone could be better phrased, and I apologise if it comes across as degrading.

Let pianoman1 decide which advice he wants to take. Don't make it for him.

That's exactly what I didn't want Johmusic to do. So, I have shared pianoman1 an alternative for him to chose. Hence, I have expanded his choices, not restrict it.

And no...it's not bad advice...because the same advice was given to me by my teacher...and you know what? It worked like a charm. So if it worked...it's not bad advice.

Obviously, Pianoman1 should keep writing. But it's obvious he needs to learn a lot more about the medium he's writing for if he wants it to be good.

I hope that my next commentaries won't be taken as arrogant, because it's not meant to. And forgive me, there are many teachers out there who teaches all sorts of ways to learn something. And all of you have been taught by good teachers and lesser good teachers. It's great that you learnt from your teacher and it worked like a charm. I think that's wonderful. But again, my comments about doing is not new, and not specific to music learning. I am only passing thoughts that you and I have been taught many times by many people, that is, the best way to learn something is to exercise and/or apply it. And my point that he should write for the medium is because by doing that, he will learn the medium.

It's for this reason that, even though professors of compositions knows a great deal of music, but the music they write are often empty and not at all something we're drawn to again and again. They know music, but they don't know how to write music that stirs our hearts, mainly because they don't attempt to write from the heart, instead from the head. Of course, I am generalizing here, because there are always exceptions to any comments. But it's clear that Williams are often snubbed by the "establishment" as someone not being a real composer, because he composes movie music.

This is truly a ridiculous thought, which are clearly based on jealousy.

If I am totally wrong on any of my posts, I welcome it, because I want to learn from others who knows better.

To condense my thoughts, all I am saying is, "Write and learn, instead of Learn and write". It's as simple as that.

[pianoman1 0]

Well first of all, I must say that I am surprised about all the responces. There were some question about whether or not i knew anything at all about composing for the concert band. Well, it is my first time doing somthing like this, but i have been composing for the piano (just not physically hand writting it) for years! Last year, i knew that if i were to get anywhere musically, the best way was to learn an insterment in the band and learn the uses for different insterments and primerally learn all of them. So i went to the Band director and told him i wanted to join the band. He asked me what i wanted to play, and i said anything, since it is difficult to choose from the many, but i did not want a sax, cause thats not in a symphony orchastra which in the end is my goal. Anyways, he said that they needed some trombonists in the band so i agreed. After playing the instrement for about 4-5 weeks, i was in the concert band with the trombone. then at the end of the year, i got the idea that i could compose for the concert band with a piece that i had written for piano. so i played it for the band leader and said "good luck." But being me, a detirmined person, i started and just finished the score about a week ago. Hopefully it will be performed in march. but thats further down the road.

So that brings me up to here. I finally got the MIDI to work and now hafta transpose. I think that im going to do the stuff about ranges when i can talk to the actual players of the piece.

SkyMaker, i do agree with you about the learning expierence of learning from mistakes, much like how we all learned to ride a bike.

JohnMusic, you also bring up the good point that i really have no idea what im doing, which is true, but don't we all have no idea of what we're doing at some point or another??? Also, I do not take any offence to what you said, because in some ways you are right, however, i feel like i have a grip on what is supposed to be done.

Re'n, Thanx for standing up for me LOL . In the end the decision will be mine.

Thankyou again for all the adivse!!!! It has helped in my process of the sheet music......

(btw i did figure out how to do the thing with ScoreWriter its all fine now)

thakyou again.

If anyone else has any other ideas, please feel free to post

[Gamecube 0]

Post your music for us.

[pianoman1 0]

Post your music for us.

I'm sorry, but i do not think i should, for my own protection. I know it sounds corny but its true.

Anyways, I just came up with another question

Does it matter what order the Staves are in the orchastra form of the score??? Like the order that i have is Flute, Trumpet 1,2,3, Clarinet 1,2,3, Alto Sax, Tenor Sax, Bari Sax, Trombone 1,2,3, Percussion, and Timpani.

Also, should i bracket like all the Trumpets together and clarinets, ive seen them used in scores before and was just wondering.

[Johnmusic 0]

Pianoman

Yes...it does usually matter what order you put the instruments in.

Honestly...the only reason it matters is because the conductors..or instructors are very used to looking at a score a certain way.

When the instruments are changed, then they can't pick things out as easily...or study a score as easily.

An example of this would be to say the alphabet. Once you finished...now try saying it out of order. I'm not talking about backwards either...say it completely out of order from memory. Did you get all the letters? If not...which ones did you leave out? Ya see what I mean?

That is the main reason why scores have a set pattern. If you would like that pattern...feel free to E-mail me...and I'll get right back to ya!

[The Five Tones 302]

Pianoman, I would suggest Alfred Blatter's book Instrumentation and Orchestration. It weighs in more on the first topic, and in any case orchestration you need to learn from people not books, and learn by listening to what others have done. Know especially the instruments and players you are writing for.

That said, the Blatter book does give excellent suggestions and has a great chapter on strings. It will also answer all your questions on transposition, ranges and setting up and ordering orchestral staves.

Cheers,

fivetones

[Ren 77]

The instruments do kind of matter. It depends on how anal you want to get. It probably ends up heavily relying on who the target conductor is. I think for the most part, just try to keep the instrument families together. And then try to keep with the doublings you used. Everyone to their own taste. Looking at some scores will help you pick which way you like.

[Ren 77]

thanks everyone for clearing things up. I knew we could do it!

[Morn 8]

You know, most of the posts I've ever read of yours have been degrading of others opinions and insisting yours is right....We are all entitled to our own opinion without degrading someone elses.

With objective matters, not all opinions are valid.

[Ren 77]

why are some opinions not as valid as others?

[Morn 8]

why are some opinions not as valid as others?

Because, when the matter is objective, opinions can be wrong.

[Ren 77]

opinions are opinions, they can never be wrong. They can be "wrong" for others but not the opinionee.

[Akipk 0]

Post your music for us.

I'm sorry, but i do not think i should, for my own protection. I know it sounds corny but its true.

Not corny. Good choice.

I think that SkyMaker is very intelligent and probably doubles as a teacher, I myself teach music as well, and the idea of saying, hey, don't do this because you don't know how doesn't give room for improvement, if you never work for anything but the piano, you will never be able to write for anything but the piano. You obviously can handle harmonies and structure well, the idea is to stop writing for the piano for a while, and now write for other instruments.

Pianoman, I'm hoping here that you're band master is approachable, you have to explain to him/her about your inexperience, you have to ask for advice in arraging the parts and transposition, and most important, the instrument's capabilities. This takes guts, but you'll get a lot from it.

What you've done is jump into the deep end, instead you should have composed for smaller ensembles first and gain confidence, then try for larger ensembles. After this project is finished, I'd advise you go back to a more managable sized group.

But yeah, don't give up, I'm hoping it all works out well for you. You might be able to borrow these orchestration books from a library near you, all of them feature score layout.

And while we're on the topic of score layout:

Flute,

Clarinet 1,2,3. Bb if the concert pitch features flats or naturals, written major 2nd above concert pitch.

Alto Sax, Eb, written a major sixth above concert pitch.

Tenor Sax, Bb, written a major 2nd plus an octave above concert pitch.

Bari Sax, Bb, written a major 6th plus an octave above conert pitch.

Trumpet 1,2,3. Bb, same as clarinet.

Trombone 1,2,3.

Timpani.

Percussion.

When you have 3 instruments, you usually write for 1 and 2 on the same staff, and the 3rd below it, unless they are all playing in unison for the entire work.

Oh, and completely off topic, who was first, Debussy or Ravel? I thought Ravel was but then again i might be thinking of him and Gershwin, lol.

[Morn 8]

opinions are opinions, they can never be wrong.  They can be "wrong" for others but not the opinionee.

And what if it was my opinion the world was flat?

[Akipk 0]

lol, still an opinion, therefore you're entitled to it, you might get locked away for it, but it's still valid

[Ren 77]

there you go,

morn, i don't know why you insist on arguing about opinions. No one can win. You have yours, I have mine, others have theirs. No one opinion is correct.

have a nice day LOL

[pianoman1 0]

I'm hoping here that you're band master is approachable

Well, unfortunatly he is not. He didn't even wanna hear the piano version of the piece or look at the sheet music for piano at first. He is very full of himself and thinks no one can be better than him. For any teacher out there, support is the most important thing!!! However, this guy is giving me none! In our band we have something called Leaders of the Band. I'm very good friends with one of them so in a leaders meeting he asked the bandleader about what he thought of my proposition. He said (and i quote), "I doubt that he can even do this. There are college coarses that you can take on how to orchastrate." Granted he has a valid point but what happened next was what really pissed me off. My friend asked him if he thought that he could help me out with the process. His response, "Oh, I don't think so.... I'm a very busy man (and full of himself) and I have lots of things to do. It takes a very long time to do something like that." No Kidding it takes a long time to do but his job is the music teacher!!! (no offense to any music teachers at schools out there) but this guy has all the time in the world to help me if he really wanted too!!! He gets like 4 out of 8 periods in a day off!!!! But he just is cruel and unapprochable.

Another thing i think i may not have mentioned is also my hopes of Conducting it as well. I have learned how to conduct, from my piano teacher, and have the baton already. I still need to ask him if i can do that too. Hopefully I can prove myself. The reason why i want to conduct it is cause, I don't want some one telling me what to do while playing my piece. He doesn't know the emotions of it.... he didn't put the sweat and work into it.

If he does not let me conduct I already have a plan, because I'm prepared that he won't let me.

I do thank you all for helping me again. Hopefully, everything will be perfect before he sees it.

Now off of the drama with the band master and back to a question that i have....

Are there brackets in a score?? For example, piano sheet music as a bracket at the beginning of each stave or group of staves. On my program there are also other types of brackets like a solid kinda bold looking one. Are they supposed to group the different parts like trumpet 1,2,3????

Thanks alot!!!

[Morn 8]

there you go,

morn, i don't know why you insist on arguing about opinions.  No one can win.  You have yours, I have mine, others have theirs. No one opinion is correct.  

have a nice day LOL

banghead Ok, it's my opinion that are you a male, am I not incorrect? :roll:

[bruckhorn 106]

Jimmity Cricket, Pianoman1, I sure hope you have local youth orchestra you could approach (it'll mean rescoring the piece), or perhaps go see the director of the concert band at a local college (with piano version and full score in hand).

For the score: there are braces and brackets. Piano (and other keyboard parts plus harp) parts use a brace ({), while brackets (more of a [ design, pick up score or a book on music notation for a more precise glyph) are used to group families: wood winds, saxes, brass, percussion, strings.

Hope this helps.

bruckhorn, who hopes Pianoman1 gets himself a mentor real quick like.

[Akipk 0]

This is bad, pianoman, and it is not your fault. Don't get emotional over what he says, because I will tell you straight he had no right in saying it... unless your friend made it up but I doubt it. Band leaders sound interesting. Find away to contact all of them away from the bandmaster, because by the sounds of it, if he did not look at your piano score, he has no interest in you whatsoever, and will not perform the piece. This means you are going to have to organise the performance yourself, the performers and the venue. The reason why I have mentioned it's good that you have band leaders is that you are going to need to use them. But first approach people lower on the ladder and ask them for help on their instrument group.

You may have to shout all the members of your band a iced coffee or something too. Good luck, I have been here before, and I know how damn hard it is.

[Kradia 1]

And what if it was my opinion the world was flat?

It can no longer be an opinion, because there is irrefutable/physical proof.

Well, look, you're on one continent, I'm over here.

The fact that someone has proven it to be untrue or true, it can no longer be an opinion. Opinions lacks proof or positive knowledge. An opinion can only have one's support.....

If you still choose to believe it, then you are delusional.

Ok, it's my opinion that are you a male, am I not incorrect?

Ren can prove she's a girl if she shows us her "parts".

It can be proven to be untrue or true.

[Kradia 1]

Mwha ha ha 69! 69!

In honor of my 69th post!

Also, see HP Book 4, pg 183, line 4!!!

:oops:

Kradia, who needs to go lie down....

[Morn 8]

It can no longer be an opinion, because there is irrefutable/physical proof.  

Well, look, you're on one continent, I'm over here.  

The fact that someone has proven it to be untrue or true, it can no longer be an opinion.  Opinions lacks proof or positive knowledge.  An opinion can only have one's support.....

But the point is not every opinion is valid because opinions can be wrong. The exception being subjective opinions, how much someone likes something.

[Ren 77]

The exception being subjective opinions, how much someone likes something.

are you saying you want me to be a guy? :cool:

If you're opinion of me is that I'm a guy, OK. It's your opinion. You've gone a little too far in the other direction morn. But oh well.

As for pianoman1's troubles. Sorry to hear this, keep working at what makes you happy and don't listen to anyone else.

[Morn 8]

When are you going to show us your parts?

[Ricard 2,247]

But the point is not every opinion is valid because opinions can be wrong. The exception being subjective opinions, how much someone likes something.

All opinions are subjective. Otherwise they're not opinions.

[Ren 77]

When are you going to show us your parts?

umm, never. you never showed me yours. So does that make you a girl? You are moody enough to be.

[pianoman1 0]

um..... I´m gonna ignore the couple of posts that were made above and continue the thread....

I asked this before but never did get full answer...

Where do I put the brackets in the score, Which Bracket should I use for a specific section. Once again, the insterments im useing are Flute, Clarinet (1-3), Alto Sax, Tenor Sax, Bari Sax, Trumpet (1-3), Trombone (1-3), Percussion (where i have it all together but am seperating it now for the sheet music that the players will look at - insterments are Snare Drum, Crash Cymbol, Triangle, and Bass Drum, and gong), and Timpini. Thanx alot!!!

[Ren 77]

didn't someone already say what instruments are grouped together?

Isn't that where you bracket them?

and pianoman1, sorry about the other posts, it's hard to refrain from explaining yourself to Morn.

[Frosty 0]

Bracket them according to type, then "sub" bracket them according to instrument. i.e Bracket all Ww's, brass prec, strings, etc, then bracket Flts/Picc, Oboes/ E.H, Clars, etc.

Pianoman, if worse comes to worse, I can get you a reading of your piece. Being a band teacher, I can give you a reading and even suggest some things that can make it easier for the players.

A nickle's worth of free advice: Make it as easy for the players to play as you can.

That doesn't mean don't write difficult music. It means make it as easy and straight forward as you can to insure the best possible performance. Make the parts as uncluttered as possible, DO NOT put measure numbers under each measure. Give rehearsal markings (preferably at the beginning of phrases). Put page turns in very convenient spots, such as rests or sustained notes. Look at published parts and see how they do things. Remember paper is cheap, don't be afraid to use paper.

Next piece of advice: Write like there isn't a tommorow!!!

I remember the first piece I wrote for band, and it had everything plus the kitchen sink and plumbing in it. Did it work? Maybe about 65%. Believe it or not, players do sympathize with new composers and they will tell you what can and can't be done (which is different than the individuals techinical abilities i.e if a trumpet player tells you he can't double tongue, that doesn't mean all trumpets can't double tongue.) I once had a student ask me what the lowest and highest note an Alto Sax can play. He came back with a part that was impossible. He had the lowest and highest notes in 16th notes at a fast Allegro. The Sax player looked at it and laughed. Ranges aren't the only thing to worry about. Technical demands are also warranted. Brass fatigue faster when playing sustained notes. Clarinets are notoriously out of tune. Other things you will discover as you write.

Last piece o' advice: If your instrument is piano, DO NOT write for the piano. That was Prokofiev's problem. Write for other instruments. You already know how to write for piano, that's not the problem. Learn to write FOR other instruments. You say you have good friends in the music class you're in. Write for them. Get to know each instrument intimately. A lot of that will come from books, yes, but writing for them lets you develop your palatte and tunes your ear to the specific "color" of the instrument. Prokofiev was a notorious orchestrator because he wrote for piano and then assigned parts to the instruments, Hindemith, on the other hand, wrote sonatas for every instrument he wrote for. Why? So he could become as intimate as he could with each instrument. He even tried to learn how to play each instrument so he could understand them better. And it shows too. Ask any professional orchestral musician who is easier to play: Prokofiev or Tchaikovsky. 99% will say Tchaikovsky not because they like Tchaikovsky any more or less than Prokofiev, it because Tchaikovky wrote FOR the instrument, not for the piano then orchestrated from there. I'm not saying learn to play each instrument, but become very familiar with their sound and capabilities. Just because you drive a car with automatic transmission doesn't mean you should just drive a car with automatic tranmission. Learn how to drive a manual tranmission, could be as much if not more fun...

Take this advice at face value. Having been through all of it and continuing to go through all of it doesn't make me an expert, just experienced. I have written for MANY ensembles, and a big part of the fun is figuring out colors and balances within a small group, a medium size group, a orchestra with chorus. You can't figure that out from just writing for piano then translating to whatever ensemble you want. You will deal only with the strength of the piano. Orchestrating it for whatever ensemble will be a waste of time because it could be easier and more successfully performed on the piano. Write for other instruments. Get your ears attuned to those colors, then what will happen is that instead of hearing just piano and saying, "This would sound good on a flute..." you will hear the flute immediately and write a piece knowing the intricacies and gestures of a flute, not a piano piece that happens to be played on the flute.

Catch my drift? 25% of writing for instruments comes from a book. 75% comes by writing.

Write, write write....

Frosty

[RomanticStrings 10]

Hey, I didn't see any comment about your ScoreWriter problem, and, frankly, I've never heard of the program. However, I do use the demo version of Sibelius, and I have found somewhere on there an option to extract a part. This means that, directly from the score, you can take one instrument's part and extract into another page. Maybe that's what you need to look for. I'm just throwing out an idea. Hope it helps.

~Conor

[Ren 77]

you can do that with finale too.

i myself have never heard of score writer

[pianoman1 0]

I was able to figure out the problem with the ScoreWriter, It's alot like Finale. I found this out because i went to their website to find out the problem that i was having and they were saying how ScoreWriter is like the Amatuer version of Finale. I was also surprised when i saw the price of it. It was like $240 or somehting like that.... is that really true????

Anyways, an update on the score, it is complete and all the parts are seperated and in the right transposition, much to the thanx of the people in this message board. I Thank you so very much with alot of my gratitude. Without this help, i would have been lost and probably laughed at by the bandleader person. Yet now, since i think ive finally got it right, he won't laugh, he'll be surprised yet once again.

I owe you alot,

If theres anything i can ever help with anyone you can all contact me through email or AIM or PM me

THanx again for all the great advice

Frosty, I will try to write things for the different insterements, yet, i would feel more comftorble if i could play those insterments. I'm going to ask the bandmaster if i can Learn to play another insterment instead of the trombone now so i can expand in that sence

[Ren 77]

yeah i like finale and sibelius...the academic price of finale is around 275.

[Frosty 0]

I'm a trombone player as well. I think trombone players have an advantage because they get to hear more inner parts in pieces as opposed to melodic instruments like clarinets or trumpets. Nelson Riddle was a trombone player, he arranged for Frank Sanatra. Our beloved John Williams was also a trombone player (although he says he was very amateur at it). So you are in good company.

Have fun writing.

Frosty