New themes for old - how much do we mind?

[batmanand 0]

By new themes for old, I am talking about the phenomenon of a franchise of film scores - particularly when written by the same composer - where the themes changed from one film to the next. I think we all understand that when a new composer takes over a franchise (Star Trek springs immediately to mind, as does GOF) they may want to stamp their own authority on it, by creating new themes for old. But what about when themes change even when the same composer is still writing the scores?

I am thinking in particular about three examples:

1. The Imperial theme in Star Wars that is replaced by the Imperial March for the rest of the franchise

2. The Family theme from Harry Potter, that is replaced by the Window to the Past theme in POA

3. Gollum's theme, which was established in FOTR and then totally replaced in TTT

Now OK, there will always be arguments about whether the themes actually represent the same thing. In the Imperial March case, I remember reading long articles about how the Imperial theme should have been used in Episode II etc. To be honest, I think that is a load of bull. It is abundantly clear that the two themes represent substantially the same thing: Darth Vader and the Empire. With the Family/Past theme, again I think it is clear that they are for the same thing (ie Harry's parents and his pride in them). And Gollum's theme is almost unarguable; it is a simple like-for-like replacement of themes.

Personally, I do not mind if the theme it is replaced by is better. Without a shadow of a doubt, the Imperial March is better than the older Imperial theme. Not only as a piece of music, but as a representation of the Empire and Vader; can anyone seriously imagine Darth Vader's death being scored with the Imperial theme?! It is also for precisely this reason that I hated Shore's abandoning of the original Gollum theme. IMO it was just a better motif for the character. As for the family theme/past theme, I actaully love them both. I think that some of the playings of the Family theme in HP:PS are just magnificent - some of the best music in the film - but that by POA it was maybe getting a little tired. And the new past theme, particulalry when it is used tenderly (such as when Lupin and Harry are on the bridge near the beginning of the film), is stunning.

So what do other people think?

[pi 0]

Or what about AWESOME themes, like Fawkes the Pheonix, that are hardly used? You kind of miss them a bit.

[TheTennisBallKid 17]

3. Gollum's theme, which was established in FOTR and then totally replaced in TTT

Actually, Gollum has two themes -- for his double-personality -- and they're both widely used in TTT....

ttbk

The Goodbye, The Little Princess, Patrick Doyle

[Henry B 50]

The original theme for Gollum was not abandoned in TTT. It shows up spectacularly in "The Forbidden Pool." However, I don't recall it being used at all in RotK. One of the score's few disappointments.

I'm not a big fan of continuity anymore. Carrying over themes is fine, but I'd rather have a theme or two dropped if it means wonderful, new music.

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I didn't mind in the case of the Family theme from HP. The original is lovely, and like you said, makes up some of the best, most gorgeous parts of the first score ("A Change of Season," "Leaving Hogwarts"). And "A Window to the Past" gave the third film what it needed, with more of an emotional, tragic depth. So they both work fine, and appropriately represent the progression of the characters and storyline.

Ray Barnsbury

[John Crichton 4]

I think everyone's on board with the Imperial March taking over for the old Imperial motif in the original trilogy. But I know there are quite a few people who wanted to hear the Imperial motif in the prequels. Personally I disagree, the March was/is the dominant theme and the one that should have been used.

A Window to the Past is a beautiful theme used perfectly, worthy of the library of great HP themes Williams created for the first two scores. But the throwing away of almost all thematic continuity is still a weak point with me for PoA, since the thematic structure of the first two scores was so strong, some of Williams' best ever.

I love Gollum's "pity" theme from FotR. I hate the Gollum music Shore created for TTT. I get why he did it, but I just can't get into it. But then again I have that problem with almost the whole TTT score.

Overall I'm still a sucker for new spins on old themes in sequel scores, as much as new themes. The big statement of the Flying Theme at the end of PoA is still my favorite moment of that whole score.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I'm still a little confused between Star Wars' 'Vader motif', 'Imperial theme' and 'Death Star motif'. :S

[Indiana_Fett 0]

Vader motif is the little march similar to the march from "Mars". Death Star motif is the 4 note theme that plays when we see the Death Star and the 2 Star Destroyers. Vader and Imperial are the same thing.

[Datameister 2,057]

^ Well, the Death Star motif is 4 notes. But who's counting?

BurgaFlippinMan, John Williams originally wrote a short, undeveloped theme for Vader and the Empire in ANH. You can hear it, for example, in "The Death Star/The Stormtroopers" from about 2:05 to 2:13. Also try 1:53 to 1:59 in "Burning Homestead." (The loud four-note motif right before this is the aforementioned Death Star motif, which is also heard in "Imperial Attack" (6:18 to 6:22) and "Tales of a Jedi Knight/Learn About The Force" (4:12 to 4:17).) Then, for ESB, Maestro Williams basically abandoned this theme in favor of a more developed (and, arguably, more menacing) theme that became the famous Imperial March.

So the Death Star motif and Vader motif are pretty much exclusively found in ANH, and the Imperial March is exclusive to all the other films.

[Trent B 337]

I think everyone's on board with the Imperial March taking over for the old Imperial motif in the original trilogy. But I know there are quite a few people who wanted to hear the Imperial motif in the prequels. Personally I disagree, the March was/is the dominant theme and the one that should have been used.

I have no clue why so many people wanted to hear the original Imperial motif in the Prequels especially for ROTS. I am glad it never appeared there. I definitely agree with you that the Imperial March was/is the dominate theme. I didn't expect anything but the Imperial March to show up in the Prequel scores.

Though I guess you can say there is a subtle hint towards the Imperial motif in "News Of The Attack".