Willow

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Well i just got that yesterday, along with Jaws 1 & 2 and well i can see that your hypotesis about Horner's plagiarism have became Teories for me. Track 8, Willow the sorcerer, about 20 seconds. That remembers me another little wizard... strange, this is

PD: Jaws 1 and 2 are VERY good

[Morn 8]

That score... the main adventure theme is from a Schumann symphony and some of the battle music is out of Prokofiev's Alexander Nevsky film score

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

there is EVEN more?

Anyways it is good (although it's Horner... :roll: )

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

It's good, but the Schumann rip is IMHO the most annoying thing Horner has ever done (I once saw about 10 minutes of the movie, but couldn't concentrate on the action - my mind was busy for 30 minutes until I had figured out where I had heard that theme).

There's one bit in Willow that appears at least twice on the CD (don't ask me where exactly, can't remember) that sound very much like it could have been written by Richard Strauss. Perhaps it's original Horner, but I just don't trust him...I'd really like to know if he did it or where he got it from.

If you like Escape from the Tavern, get Schumann's Symphony #3 - you'll enjoy that, too.

Marian - who likes all of Schumann's symphonies.

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

have you and MP3 of that one? Just an experiment to corrobore the theory

anyways did you get the thing I said about the other little wizard?

[Figo 2]

This score has become a favorite "whipping boy" around here.

Horner cribs Madmartigan's theme from the first movement of Schumann's "Rhenish" Symphony (no. 3). The motif heard whenever we see Pat Roach's character (skullface) is from Rachmaninoff's Symphony No. 1. "Escape from the Tavern" (beginning) is lifted from the "Death of Tybalt" from Prokofiev's "Romeo and Juliet." Once the cart chase is underway, we hear (besides the Madmartigan/Schumann theme) lots of "Alexander Nevsky." "Nevsky" pervades most of the action scenes. There is a swelling motif with a lot of longing about it which is clearly "inspired by" the slow movement of Tchaikovsky's 4th Symphony. You can hear Grieg's "Peer Gynt" ("Arabian Dance") in the folksy music when Willow and friends embark upon their journey. Also, I was just listening to Grieg's "Lyric Pieces" for solo piano on Friday night, and it struck me for the first time that Horner also stole a portion of the "Cradle Song" (or "Lullaby") from Book IX, which Grieg himself arranged for string orchestra ("Two Lyric Pieces," Op. 68). I hope this helps!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wow, Horner too inspiration from so many sources and still managed to create a cohesive score with an identity of it's own.

That's why he's bringin in the big bucks.

Stefancos- Horner fan.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Wow, Horner too inspiration from so many sources and still managed to create a cohesive score with an identity of it's own.

I don't know if I'd call it inspiration. For some reason, I never notice Horner's Prokofiev rips until someone points them out to me. I guess he just does it too often, and I knew Horner first.

That's why he's bringin in the big bucks.

Ah yes...capitalism. LOL

Marian - fan of good Horner scores.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I don't know if I'd call it inspiration. For some reason, I never notice Horner's Prokofiev rips until someone points them out to me. I guess he just does it too often, and I knew Horner first.

So if i ever decide to listen to Prokofiev, (just for the sake of argument, off course) i'll probably hear a lot of horner in his work.

And probably dismiss Prokofiev for it.

That's why he's bringin in the big bucks.

Ah yes...capitalism.  LOL

Money makes the world go round, i wish i had more of it.

Marian - fan of good Horner scores.

What...all 3 of them?

Stefancos- wondering if Figo is shaking his head, over all this classical music blasphemy.

[Uni 306]

It's good, but the Schumann rip is IMHO the most annoying thing Horner has ever done....

As I mentioned recently on yet another Horner thread (speaking of copying previous material....all these JH threads are starting to sound alike, aren't they...? :roll:), my biggest PPRO - Pet Peeve Rip-Off - is his constant use of the Adagio from the Gayne Ballet. It pops up first in Aliens, then in both Patriot Games and its sequel, Clear and Present Danger, then again in another film someone mentioned on that previous thread which I have yet to see.

So imagine my surprise when, just the other day, I turned on Project X, a movie I haven't seen for fifteen years (when it first came out), and what should I hear but the melancholy strains of the SAME PIECE yet again? I was speechless, and for the first time I actually had to tip my hat to the Hornerbashers. It's one thing to mimic a piece for a major theme in one movie; to do it over and over again is just begging for criticism.

- Uni....who remains a loyal Horner fan nonetheless.... :roll:

[Figo 2]

About "Willow:"

Don't get me wrong, I liked the score to begin with, although the last two times I've listened to it, it has made me kind of queasy.

Steef, if you ever do break down and give Prokofiev a try, be sure and listen to "Romeo and Juliet" (especially "The Death of Tybalt") and "Alexander Nevsky" (especially "The Battle on the Ice"). "Nevsky" is film music, after all, so you won't be compromising your standards.

Figo, who aired Shostakovich's "Michurin" Suite this past weekend and was surprised to find he managed to write 36 scores!

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

WELL it seems that nobody noticed my point?

Just hear track 8, Willow the sorcerer 15'' to 25''. That doesn't resemble the theme of another little GREEN wizard back in 1980?

It can be heard in the socre many times but that one is the most noticeable.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Kermit?

Stefancos-

[Guest]

I haven't heard many rips on Star Trek II. I still think that's the best Horner score of all of them. Star Trek III's not bad, either. Then, in a different genre, Apollo 13 is quite good, even though it gives a few nods to its predecesor and trailer score, Clear and Present Danger (but no rip-offs or Gayane Adagios).

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Kermit?

Stefancos-

I suppose the ' ' means you know it? I HOPE

Another clue, its from John Williams

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Innded, that opening snaredrum motif is identical to the one used in Clear and Present Danger.

Otherwise they are not THAT similar, although both scores boast a good patriotic theme.

Stefancos- who doesn't think much of Horner's Jack Ryan scores, and hopes Jerry's is better.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

And probably dismiss Prokofiev for it.

Why don't you check out Prokofiev? Alexander Nevsky, Lt. Kije and Ivan the Terrible are film scores (and damn good ones). And while Romeo & Juliet is a ballet, it works like a film score. Technically hardly any difference between that and Star Wars.

Money makes the world go round, i wish i had more of it.

Me too.

Marian - fan of good Horner scores.

What...all 3 of them?

Hmm...Sneakers, Aliens, Casper, Brainstorm, a couple of others... no, more than three.

Regarding Aliens, I hated the use of Gayaneh in the movie. But on the album, where the score isn't as butchered as in the film, Horner actually incorporates the theme into the score, and varies it, instead of simply copying it. For me, it works quite well that way. I'm far more concerned by the Khan and Star Wars bits, which I find VERY annoying. Still, great score, and Don Davis apparently likes it, too.

Marian - who picked up an album with excerpts from Khachaturian's Spartacus and Gayaneh yesterday.

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Lets not forget the rip-off that struck me as most obvious in Willow, that shakuhachi theme... the beginning of it ripped directly from Bernstein (West Side Story, Finale), or from Wagner (Götterdämmerung, near the End), or Horner got it from Berstein got it from Wagner, you chose

-Chris

[Mattris 416]

B C C# C (from Willow, Enemy At The Gates, The Perfect Storm) :?

[Morn 8]

And everything else by Horner. Since Star Trek 2

[Luke Skywalker 1,795]

Kermit?

Stefancos-

I suppose the ' ' means you know it? I HOPE

Another clue, its from John Williams

Well it seems that nobody noticed. that part is very similar to YODA's theme

[Director 1]

It's even all over The Grinch.

Director - who hasn't heard it in what he's heard of Windtalkers and was pleased that A Beautiful Mind didn't have it. (It didn't, right?)

"Jo" from Men Of Honor (Isham)