.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

9 seconds is lot of dialogue though.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Hmm interesting. So what's exactly this Palantir scene about, and how would it fit in there? And I'm guessing we're never going to see it?

P.S.: OK, so can anyone finally tell me what's the difference between Thrain's theme and the Erebor theme? Because apparently, reading at some posters' comments, they consider it two separate themes, but they sound exactly the same to me! (Cue in KK spewing some bullshit like: "You don't understand, BB. The two themes are quite different! Thrain's theme is in minor mode, following a G phrase with a contrapuntal pedal, whereas the Erebor theme in fact is in major mode and features a diatonic Lydian appoggiatura, with some modal shifts. I honestly don't see how you could mixed those two!")

Well, I for one don't think "Thrains' Theme" exists. Didn't know what everyone was referring to for a good while, and then when I found out it was that moment with the Erebor theme, I didn't agree. Not sure why people are classifying this particular statement of Erebor as an indepndent theme. I guess it's another case of the "over-classification" syndrome...

It's just the Erebor theme, with a nice appregiated figure underneath. Though a Lydian appoggiatura would have been nice...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

OK just watched the video - very cool BB! I have no idea why PJ dialed out the middle of the Thrain chase, because to me the music really keeps the scene going with a nice pace when watching this video! Also, it's a damn shame HS decided to microedit out 2 sections so we don't have the full cue. It's a bonus track HS, listening experience isn't important! Bah!

For the second half, it's great how well the music plays during the Balin/Bilbo scene. It probably made sense for it to be dialed out in the final cut, irregardless of what scene followed next, but I like seeing how Shore originally scored it.


As for what the Palantir scene could have contained - well, who the hell knows! All we really know about it is whatever we can guess from the LEGO set and banner. Here, let me show you:

LEGO set:

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/new-lego-desolation-of-smaug-game-sets-seem-to-confirm-some-of-our-movie-spoiler-reports/

Banner:

http://www.thelandofshadow.com/looking-a-bit-closer-at-the-new-hobbit-dos-banner-a-palantir/

My guess is after those shots in BB's video of Gandalf running after Thrain, they knock the Palantir off it's perch, Gandalf picks it up, has some kind of vision, and then him and Thrain talk about it. Somewhere during their talk, Thrain would have said "They are in league - The Dragon and The One!" - which now in the final cut is hastily ADRed in over the shots of them running, since PJ didn't restore the entire Palantir scene for whatever reason. Oh well.

As for if we'll ever see it - well, we are 11 years beyond the LOTR trilogy coming out at this point, and PJ still hasn't released any deleted scenes, so I wouldn't hold my breath for a bonus feature showing Hobbit deleted scenes any time soon, unless they don't have a lot to talk about on the BOFA EE set and they stick them in there. Who knows!

Finally, as for Thrain's Theme - there's definitely some confusion about it. Like Bard and Family and Lake-town/Bard, it's a theme written for DOS that didn't end up making it's way into the underscore very much (Lake-town/Bard didn't make it anywhere, and Bard's Family and Thrain made once brief appearance each).

The thing with Thrain's Theme is, the Erebor part you highlighted isn't his theme (obviously, it's the Erebor Theme!) - but his theme is closely tied to it. Basically, Thrain's Theme doesn't even technically appear in the Thrain track! The only "real" appearance of Thrain's Theme is in "On The Doorstep", where it plays from from 0:16 to 0:24 - sandwiched between the Erebor Theme. Essentially, Thrain's Theme is that bit, plus a certain way of orchestrating Erebor around it to match. The delicate, plucked string backing behind Erebor leading into his theme proper is what I'm talking about I guess.

Now, there's more to it than that, obviously - think about Beorn's Theme, and how it's only appearances in the DOS score where it's opening ostinato stuff, for the most part, but then the sheet music book that became available for purchase showed us how that is just the beginning of his theme, and it really continues on into this cool Reclamation of Nature-y main part. Well, Thrain's theme is the same way, in that there is more to the theme, that simply didn't have a place to be used in the final cut of DOS. Much like Bard and Family and Lake-town/Bard. Think about how much Bard and Family got developed in BOFA after it's short appearance in DOS. Maybe there was supposed to be another Thrain scene in DOS that would have had a reason for such a delicate theme to be written, but I don't have a clue what it could be and I doubt we'll ever see it.

So there you go!

[Faleel 5,350]

Are you reffering to that harp motive in underneath the Erebor theme from Thrain's healing?

[Jay 37,364]

Yea the only time that is used under Erebor is when it leads into Thrain's theme.

[Faleel 5,350]

Yea the only time that is used under Erebor is when it leads into Thrain's theme.

Its use in Thrain's healing leads into Thrain's theme?

[Jay 37,364]

What?

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

What?

This is my reaction to all of these Lord of the Rings threads. It's the JWFan equivalent of Wesley pestering Worf about Riker's promotion. "ENOUGH!"

[KK 3,307]

Or the equivalent to the unending Trekkie quoting. Some evils just can't be extinguished

It's only for a month more, so keep it all in your pants, they'll be gone soon enough (as always).

[Jay 37,364]

Well, does anybody else have any thoughts on BB's Thrain video?

[Incanus 5,715]

Well I wouldn't know there is a Thrain's theme at all if it were not for your confirmation there is one, Jason. Another abandoned concept?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

DOS 2-06 On The Doorstep

0:00-0:45 Thrain’s Theme

When, really, Thrain's theme only shows up from 0:16 to 0:24, and before and after that is the Erebor theme.

Unless it is just a subtle extension of Erebor theme.

The version of Erebor's theme that opens the film version of On the Doorstep with the same harp accompaniment. Is this the same tracked statement of this particular Erebor theme variation taken from Gandalf healing Thrain scene or a different performance?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Funny how the use of Thrain's theme coincides with the shot of the company climbing past the head of Thrór's statue. There is basically nothing to give us a hint that it is Thrain's theme.

[Jay 37,364]

Well the On The Doorstep scene was supposed to come right after the Healing scene, so the Erebor stuff would have started during the healing scene leading to Thrain's theme as his son climbs the statue.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Awesome work BBoal! It all makes sense now!

That is still one of my favourite musical sequences in the whole Hobbit trilogy. Everything comes together so seamlessly.

[Jay 37,364]

Great video BB, thanks so much for making it!!

Now, as you may remember, when I made my video of On The Doorstep, I told you that the bit from 00:00 to 00:16 was microedited by two seconds in the film and so I had to slow down the footage a wee bit here. But now, if I put the Thrain footage right before that scene, it makes the beginning of On The Doorstep starts in the last two seconds of the Thrain scene: basically, it all makes sense now.

Aha, yea it all makes sense now!! That's really cool!

And damn, how annoying is it that in the EE PJ jammed us right from Thrain's healing into the Last of the Seven scene rather than continuing nicely into the On The Doorstep scene? BAH!



Also, It's a damn shame that the opening Erebor statement microedited out of the Thrain OST track can't be "fixed" by adding in the opening of the On the Doorstep OST track, which is what I initially hoped for when I first compared the bonus track to the film and realized there was a microedit. Damn!



Also: I agree with you, that the footage actually SHOWING via flashback Thrain and Thorin together at the Battle of Moria is a last minute add-on to the sequence. This goes along with a lot of PJ's recent "make sure the audience really understands this connection!" mentality, which is annoying. I like how your new video doesn't include it!




ONE LAST REQUEST

Would you consider making a final version, with the microedits at 1:19 and 1:23 un-done by mixing in the rear channel rips from the blu ray?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Jay 37,364]

Wow! You are THE man, I don't care what they say!

[Jay 37,364]

And got a chance to watch the video. Great work, BB!

Everytime I see stuff like this, I see the version of the film Shore scored is always better than the final TC or EE cut! Including a flashback to the Battle of Moria is totally unnecessary!

And I still don't like that Shore made those 2 microedits for the OST.

[Jay 37,364]

Finally had a chance to watch that video with the volume cranked, and DAMN, I really like that bit Shore microedited out of the track!

Why Shore, WHY!?

[gkgyver 1,645]

Because he can!

[Jay 37,364]

BTW, I was just watching BB's video for The Courage of Hobbits and noticed something. The first cue in that track basically covers all of the Bilbo/Balin scene, up until the music stops in order to have silence for Balin's line "don't waken it".

So, I think "The Palantir" was meant to start AFTER that line, probably during next shot that begins with Bilbo's face and then he turns around.

Of course it's perfect in your Thrain video how the music changes right when the scene changes to Gandalf and Thrain, so maybe some extra shots of Bilbo going down the stairs and into the tunnel was snipped out of the final cut?

Either that, or maybe Shore meant for Smaug's theme to still be playing as Gandalf and Thrain are running.

[Mr. Breathmask 555]

Or it's an alternate.

[gkgyver 1,645]

What I would given to hear the full, unedited pieces Shore wrote for the Hobbit one day, like for RotK ....

[Jay 37,364]

Or it's an alternate.

I have reasons for my reasoning

What I would given to hear the full, unedited pieces Shore wrote for the Hobbit one day, like for RotK ....

Me too, especially for AUJ!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,350]

I don't really buy it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,350]

I just think the seeing how the cue is referencing the Mirror of Galadriel music, that the whole Mordor stuff would score the actual Palantir visions.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

So how brief is this Palantir scene supposed to be? Because there isn't much music there, especially if Gandalf and Thrain are just running into the scene.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

What if the Smaug music isn't meant for that Bilbo scene? What if it's part of the talk that builds up towards the grand Palantir vision, you know, to emphasize the connection between the dragon and Sauron?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What if!

[Faleel 5,350]

What if the Smaug music isn't meant for that Bilbo scene? What if it's part of the talk that builds up towards the grand Palantir vision, you know, to emphasize the connection between the dragon and Sauron?

That is what I think

[Barnald 365]

I also think this. Apparently the vision shows Smaug leading Sauron's armies, so it would make sense to hear his theme at some point

[Jay 37,364]

It's hard to explain really, but BB and I know with 100% confidence that the opening of the track was meant for the end of the Bilbo/Balin scene. Sorry!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

How will they explain that Saruman somehow get his hands on Smaugs Palantir? Since there are no other ones seen on mentioned in LOTR.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But if Sauron looses his Palantir, how can he later contact Saruman? Does he have a whole collection?

[BloodBoal 7,538]