Adam

I can see Lucas saying, "wow I really like that, I picture that going for such and such scene in RotS, so we're not going to use it in AotC". But although the music doesn't cue up perfectly, one can hear how JW wrote it as specific underscore to AotC, with the music changing character to fit the specifics of the scene. And one can also see how the scene in AotC no longer has music but probably was supposed to. - Adam

Hymn to the Fallen is one of the only cases I can think of where he wrote an original tune for the end credits. The main theme is very good in the movie but maybe he figured it couldn't really be developed into the kind of statement that he wanted to make at the end of the film. The end credits goes all out in the honor and country dept. The underscore had to be much more understated. - Adam

Just going on personal favorites as music and thinking about the entire score which especially helps out scores like AI, Temple and Empire of the Sun. 1. ET 2. AI 3. Schindler’s List 4. Temple of Doom 5. Empire of the Sun 6. Raiders 7. Last Crusade 8. Jurassic Park 9. Hook 10. Close Encounters 11. Amistad 12. Minority Report 13. Terminal 14. The Lost World 15. Jaws 16. Catch me if you Can 17. Saving Private Ryan 18. Always 19. Sugarland Express 20. 1941 - Adam

Those are legitimate examples but I still think there are tendencies that help a score get recognized. In general it helps if the film is good. And in general it helps if music plays an important role in the movie. There's something close to a consensus around "classics" such as Jaws, Star Wars, ET, Schindler's List, etc. and that fits what I'm talking about. Hook there's lots of disagreement but whether one likes the movie and music or not, its maybe the most musical movie he’s ever done in terms of the extent to which the movie leans on music, so its bound to get more attention than Monsignor or something like that and I'd say it would be more recognized overall had the film been better. There's no formula but its just a general tendency with exceptions along the way. Publicist brought up Presumed Innocent and that kind of touches on my point because when you talk about standards, its going to be the case that everyone evaluates scores on different grounds and its not always spelled out. And yet we often disagree with eachother as though we were all talking about the same thing. Presumed Innocent compared to Mozart’s Requium yields a very different evaluation than, say, did the music maximize the cinematic potential of the movie? And the latter is certainly what he was paid to do - the greatest music in the world would get thrown out if it doesn’t work with the movie. But this underlying criteria is different from person to person not surprisingly. - Adam

Very well said. That’s one of the reasons its hard for me to rank his scores because if I use the fair standard and ask how well did his music fit the requirements of the movie - ouside of a little nitpicking, its generally hard for me to find fault. And it seems off the wall for me to say that because I don’t like to listen to Jaws very much, for example, its less inspired or worse or something. That’s not a fair standard and it doesn’t do justice to how good the score is. I’m probably repeating Jeshopk somewhat but its not a coincidence that his “classic” scores tend to be to very good movies where music had to play an important role. Every once and awhile a film comes along, where composers think, “I wish I could have done that one”, because they recognize that it affords special possibilities. I always like to think of Heartbeeps because its such a horrible movie and yet I can’t imagine a better score for that movie. Does that mean its a great score? Depends on how you look at it. By the standard of only JW’s contribution, I’d have to say yes. By the standard of looking at the score as a final result of the composer AND the film, probably not. But that’s looking at factors outside of JW’s control and I don’t downgrade Williams’ effort because of the film. But I think people often use the latter standard, maybe not explcitly, but that impression is often given. And that can also be a factor that explains the different reactions. - Adam

Very good summary of the themes. I didn't notice the Sith one but when I watch the DVD maybe I'll hear that. I think the funeral music is the most disappointing. Even the pretty newer version uses the force theme like the old one and I'm not sure it belongs there right at the moment they show Darth Vader. And with the sequence where Vader awakens, I feel like something original would have worked better though its not bad as it is. I can't help but think Lucas had a very particular idea of using that music there. But that's just a minor gripe. - Adam

Yes, that's the theme I'm talking about. Its heard in the horse sequence and when they dig into the woman's body and a couple other times. Seems to have some connection to the references to the devil and gives the feeling of a mindless, unthinking descent into evil. Speaking of anal, I decided to go through the dvd and listen to the unreleased stuff and its about 22 minutes. But your point holds - its not a lot but its got a lot of really good material. The DVD is my complete soundtrack for now. Hopefully someday a full release of the music ... - Adam

It seems like there’s more than 15 minutes of unreleased music though I suppose the stuff that really jumps out is around that length. Especially the diabolical/devil theme which adds another dimension to the score that is completely missing from the official release. Howard Shore uses a very similar type of theme I noticed for Lord of the Rings to represent evil. In terms of the amount of underscore, it depends on the style of the film more than anything. 70s films tended to call out for less music in general. But when a movie like Saving Private Ryan comes along, it has less music than Midway, another WWII film, and lots of other 70s films. When I watch Saving Private Ryan, even though there’s not that much music, nothing jumps out at me for needing more underscore. And yet when I watch RotS, which has almost wall-to-wall music, the few cases of no music jump out at me for needing music and I assume music was taken out and that is wasn't a creative decision on JW's part, as seems to be the case. So it comes down to scoring the film that you're given, I think, and if Lucas thought there was too much music he should have made a film that had downtime, so to speak, where music wasn't constantly needed to keep the film afloat. - Adam

Your kidding,right? I have never gotten over that one. K.M.who thinks the Reivers Suite is UTTERLY ruined. In the case of The Reviers suite, JW wrote the music specifically for the dialog so at least the two things try to work together and we’re hearing the music how it was intended to be heard. I don’t mind that example so much, though I listen to it less than I do his non-dialog suites. I wouldn' want him to make a habit of that kind of thing, but as a one-time experiment I think that is a good example of how dialog can be used. With Angela’s Ashes, the dialog is added after the fact and gets in the way, especially for the finale (Back to America or whatever its called) so that’s a much worse example for me. - Adam

Wow, I had no idea my question would be powerful enough to inspire commentary about the decline of Western culture. Your first presumption seems to be that your riddle is worthy of the time that it would take people to investigate. Your second presumption seems to be that you’re doing us a favor - we’ll be overwhelmed by a powerful sense of discovery, no doubt. A third presumption is that anybody who does the logical thing, and asks what you’re talking about is “young”. A fourth presumption is that young people deserve to be lumped together and given your scorn and condescension. But its not a big deal - I don't have to know. Maybe next time I listen to it I'll remember to watch for that. - Adam

I like the music to Born on the Fourth of July but I don't understand the topic, bird "obligatto". Can somebody explain?

I could see the dramatic aspects having some similarity as well as the darker tone, like you say. The reason they could be very different I think is that, unlike RotS, WotW seems to want to be grounded in a more realistic style of direction. The fantasy has to be treated in an alien kind of way with lots of dissonance so the otherworldly aspect feels scary and unsettling, and not taken for granted like a Star Wars movie. Actually, PoA, with its more serious tone, veers in that direction with some of the dementor scenes, for example, though I agree that the thematic parts probably won’t be similar. Close Encounters and AI go even further with that kind of effect for the scary scenes. But the emotional part of WotW and the action sequences are big question marks because its hard to tell how those will be treated in the film. The final saber battle in RotS is probably more apocalyptic in style, thus the cosmic/quasi-religious struggle music, than War of the Worlds is stylistically, despite the title of the latter and the trailer. But I’m just basing that on a few interviews I’ve read of Spielberg’s and the fact that studios tend to market every big summer blockbuster in an apocalyptic way, with a large choir and an overall tone of THIS IS THE BIGGEST SUMMER EVENT IN THE HISTORY OF MOVIES!!! So its hard to make much of the trailer. But I don’t really know if Spielberg is serious about keeping a realistic, intimate focus even when the world is ending. - Adam

The first Star Wars film was followed by Williams doing a Spielberg earthbound sci-fi film, Close Encounters. So it seems fitting that the last Star Wars film is followed by a Spielberg earthbound sci-fi film. The short clips make me think even more of Close Encounters, also. I guess the aliens will be a little less friendly this time. - Adam

I guess this is as good a thread as any to post a random observation. I can’t totally trust my first impression, or second in this case, but it seems like the Emperor’s Theme was used in a great way in RotS. I remember it starting out as an instrumental version with no choir. Then we start to hear the theme with some choir after Palpatine’s face is deformed and he’s talking to Anakin. And then right at the moment that he puts his hood on his head, the low-end choir comes in strongly while the theme is still being played. So there’s a sense that the theme slowly reveals itself in the same manner as the character. When his transformation is complete, the theme is heard in its full development. Nice little touch assuming I didn't somehow miss the boat. - Adam

BotH is impessive in that it seems to have mostly been written for the film. Its rare that underscore gets a chance to make such a statement for several minutes to the point that it can sound like it was written as a concert track (and not just adapted slightly to be a concert track as it seems to be the case). Chamber of Secrets is the opposite in that it is a concert track with very little presence in the film, even in adapted form. So BotH has made much more of an impresion for me even though CoS is extremely good and has the great build-up where he keeps ratcheting up the intensity of the theme. - Adam

I could see a situation where the studio is going to play up the epic, cosmic world struggle angle because that generates more excitement than Spielberg saying this is the most realistic shot style of movie he's ever shot. The reality is probably somewhere in between. He'll use a kind of intimate focus and realistic palette, maybe, but ultimately have to deliver some big-time cinematic thrills or people will wonder what is going on. - Adam

I noticed a lot of it, maybe more than the other prequels, in RotS, particularly the first part of the movie. In some cases it works but stuff like "Aren't you too short..." and other sort of banal dialog just seems like an unnecessary conceipt. I don't see the point. Not a huge problem but, again, just kind of distracting I thought. I guess if it has some meaning in the film as well its mostly going to go unnoticed unless a person has seen the originals a lot. - Adam

Whover mixed the music understood that the TESB music didn't work as well in the film because I noticed it getting quieter than the rest of the score. I didn't notice the theme that you mentioned, Ender. Its on the CD but I don't think it survived in the film. But maybe I just missed it. - Adam

Ok, now I can see that I got things pretty confused and the new version is the same cue that incorporates Vader's theme at the end, so obviously a new arrangement. My mistake. I'm not sure how I feel about the funeral music on the CD playing over Darth Vader's awakening. He gives it more of a flourish at the end to fit Vader's scream but something more original seemed called for, for such a crucial scene. Maybe Lucas' request - I don't know. - Adam

Curious how people feel about Lucas practice of reusing dialog from the original triology and having the prequel characters say the same things. I've found it to be distracting but that might just be me since I rarely hear it get mentioned. - Adam

Well I’m just speaking to my initial impression that he didn’t so much write something new as he did subtract from the orchestra. Its not that it sounded bad but that it made me think of the kind of adjustments he makes when he doesn’t have time to rewrite something. So by intention I’m of course talking about his original intention. But, as I said, I need to see it again and your point about the number of times it repeats (I didn't remeber it being that much) casts some doubt on what I was saying although it also underscores the question of whether that music should have been relied on so much to the point that it feels looped and was that something Lucas insisted on? But, anyway, I'm going to see it again today and I'll pay closer attention. - Adam

I want to hear that scene again but my initial impression was that he did one of those on the spot corrections to the scene. So probably it played normal and Lucas said he wanted something quieter and JW carved out the arrangment. Maybe I'll see it more favorably when I watch it again but at the time it felt like it was a somewhat rushed adaptation, like he wouldn't have come up with that in his initial writing of the score. And that would explain the difference on the soundtrack where we hear it how he intended. - Adam

Princess Leia's theme is used consistently in TESB. For example, Han says he'll get her out on the falcon during battle of hoth and I think it shows up there. So its usually reacting to her being mentioned or something she does. Star Wars its used inconsistently, of course, after Ben dies. - Adam

Yeah. The positive aspect is that at least there wasn't as much of the quick edits to different tracked material. But its only because things got so bad with the first two films that one can sound positive about it this time around - our expectations have been lowered so far in that dept. Its still really bad from the point of view of how his score ought to sound. Some random thoughts on some of the themes... Besides the main titiles and the start of the end credits, I see the force theme as the main link for all 6 movies. With the first 2 prequels, JW only used it in the obvious situations where the force is evoked. In RotS, he uses it much more liberally. Its on the album more but there also several very good versions not on the album. More than any theme, I think it represents the heart of the story so it was good to see it take a more prominent role. But it has to be one of the most quoted themes in film history, outside the Bond theme I suppose. Maybe that’s why he gives it a different chord progression in this film, to try to keep it somewhat fresh. I thought Leia’s Theme feels like it was written as much for RotS as it was Star Wars. The dramatic rendition in the end credits, though written almost 3 decades ago, gives the right kind of feeling that I think the film needed with the ending. It feels right emotionally and also as a way of triggering a connection in people to the first triology, almost as though he’d planned that theme to do that all along. BotH theme was a highlight. On one hand it has no connection to the other films or even the first 2/3 of the movie. But that maybe helped to distiguish the final duel even more as a stand-alone dramatic pay-off - kind of like the dramatic centerpiece of the movie as promised in all of the hype. - Adam

Battle of the Heroes always sounded like something that existed in the film but was made into a concert track for the purpose of promotion. The force theme inclusion, in particular, seemed to give that away. And after hearing it in the film, that seems to be confirmed since the music works pretty closely with the film, IMO, something that doesn't usually happen that well when music gets tracked. I think the initial statment of BotH was added for the concert piece and the final part, as well, going from my memory of what wasn't in the film. - Adam