Guest Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Don't know what got me to remembering this, but travel back with me, if you will, all the way back to the early days of 1999, back when it was still the twentieth century. TPM was scheduled to be the first Star Wars film in 16 years, and if you were like me, you were cautiously hopeful that it'd be great. We all know how it ended up, but that's irrelevant: At the time, I (and I assume "we") were trying to be optimistic, trying to keep open minds, and I'm sure we all read all the articles reporting back from the recording sessions, hungry for new Star Wars music.Even back then, if we had but known where to look, we would have known that Lucas was going to screw up the music. I know we've all read this before, but read again in its full horror, read it again with the benefit of hindsight, read it again with the realization that Lucas was not giving, as we thought at the time, a teaser of how John Williams' work on these films would interweave with itself, but that he was speaking all too literally:QUOTE(Making 'Star Wars' sing againIn London @ Williams puts sound to Lucas's next adventureBy Richard Dyer, Globe Staff, 03/28/99)Lucas loves this dark, driven music so much he shows off the recording for Spielberg when he arrives. Spielberg says to Williams, "I'm glad I didn't drop around for a cigar on the day you wrote that." Lucas says Williams doesn't know it yet, but this music will accompany a crucial scene in the third new film. Emphasis added.Apparently Lucas liked his idea so much, he didn't wait for the third film, and didn't restrict it to one paltry scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector J. Guzman 1 Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 I remember that interview... it was posted in the "Daily Dose of John Williams". I miss a lot of articles that were in that page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 26, 2002 Share Posted August 26, 2002 Hector, I miss them too. I think I grabbed a few of them a long while back and they must be somewhere on my computer at home. I can try to find them if you'd like me to send them to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 I liked TPM in theater,it had great scope and designs.Saw it around 8 times.On the small screen,I watched it once.K.M.Who think Jake Loyd was a better Anakin than Hayden Cristenson. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCFKevin 0 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 What?! Seriously?!Yikes...to each their own and all, but......<shudder>At least Hayden had his own style. It could've been worse...Padme - "I've been dying a little each day since you've come back into my life." Hayden - "What are you talking about?"Padme - "I love you."Hayden - "YIPPIE!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Padme - "I've been dying a little each day since you've come back into my life." Hayden - "What are you talking about?"Padme - "I truly,deeply..love you."Hayden - "YIPPIE!"That horrible dialogue scene you mention above in AOTC(The Arena Love Pledge),is one of the most forced and badly acted love scene I ever saw.i'll take a Yippee over that.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Forgive me if I don't want to take a walk down memory lane to TPM street. I've been trying to forget ALL Star Wars memories going back to the release of the Special Editions. The abysmal site of PC George making Greedo shoot first and miss from 2 feet away was only the prelude to the present we know now. :cry: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 You people really give that Greedo thing WAYYY too much importance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Rogue, the people hear just don't get us do they? We seem to be in the minority in realizing Lucas' gigantic mis-steps in realtion to the Star Wars films.My point is, Star Wars (the very first film and not "the saga") was a perfect film. Period. It changed the ways movies were made. It was a tremendously influential film and is almost universally loved by everybody.Lucas then decides to re-visit this masterpiece of cinema, and tinkers with it, and you know what? He made it worse! Why should we not be critical of the censored special editions? Mr. Lucas took his wonderful film and ruined it. Oh sure, it's only a few minutes longer but the movie was perfectly paced and the new stuff slows it down, sticks out like a sore thumb and is totally un-needed.Greedo shooting first is indicative of this nonsense, that's why we harp on it so much. How could Greedo be a credible threat, if he can't hit a stationary target from 2 feet away? It's ridiculous!The only thing Lucas succeded with in the "SE"'s is that he was able to reduce Star Wars and Empire to the quality of everything else in the "saga". He brought it down to the lowest common denominator. If you want to settle for the least that it can be, suit yourself. As for me, I guess I just have higher standards, and I'll continue to watch and enjoy the original version of Star Wars.Neil - who thinks the only good thing to come of the SE releases was the complete soundtracks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Neil, I agree 100% with everything you say here. I would add that the only thing that stops me from being pissed off about the prequels is we got more John Williams music; even though it's been pissed on by Lucas/Burtt, it's more than we had before. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 Well, that, and a mind-numbing, world-weary indifference ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ricard 2,245 Posted August 27, 2002 Share Posted August 27, 2002 I remember that interview... it was posted in the "Daily Dose of John Williams". I miss a lot of articles that were in that page.They'll be back very soon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Indysolo stated it wonderfully. Anyway we are HARDLY in the minority though. We are actually in the majority. Its just that most of the people in that majority simply don't care enough and have moved beyond SW. They porbably did so a while back. OH yeah and one more thing ....You people really give that Greedo thing WAYYY too much importance.Ummmm when a dude misses his target from 2 FRIGGN FEET AWAY just so Lucas can feel all warm and fuzzy inside now because Han Solo is a "moral good guy" who did not shoot first (even though Greedo BLATANTLY said he was going to kill Han which made it self defense) I think it is QUITE a big deal thank you very much! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 NO it is not because it is completly irrelevant to the story. The SE is still the same film that came out in 1977..I don't get why some people enjoy the 1st version and despise the second.It's the same film. The essence is the same. I don't see the problem with a couple of ships flying by in the background or better looking scenarios. I prefer the SE to the orriginals jus because they look better and like some a little touches they added. But to consider it an insult to the original version is clearly overstating, IMHO.Starwars was never great because greedo got shot or anything. He missed the shot?So what..so did the stormtroopers, and Obi-Wan kenobi said they were very precise.If some opf you wnat to take the enjoyment out of the movies with such little and meaningless things, go ahead. But just remember you don't own Starwars. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Merkel, you don't make sense. One minute you can't believe we don't like the SE even though it's "the same film" and then you immediately follow that up with "I prefer the SE to the orriginals". So if you are allowed to prefer the SE then why am I not allowed to love the original?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Indy, because the changes are insigificant? Or rather, so he thinks.My point is, Star Wars (the very first film and not "the saga") was a perfect film. Period. Bullshit. Lucas then decides to re-visit this masterpiece of cinema, and tinkers with it, and you know what? He made it worse!True. Yet, I'd rather have the SE's than no SE's. All I want is the original versions on DVD. And a satisfactory special special edition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Okay Morn. Startle me. I claimed that Star Wars was a perfect film. You disagreed (big surprise). What was wrong with it, and then show me what Lucas did to the SE to fix these problems.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 I am not sure that morn is capable of independent thought, just contrary thought.The sky is blue,morn reponds, no, it is a combination of colors.ok, Grass is green,morn reponds, no, its really an olive,Ok, Star Wars was the first movieMorn reponds, no Ep. 1 is. banghead Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 The middle section.... is dull corridors with a lot of walking around and shooting. It's a bore. The end battle is not very involving. It's too static. And ends up being just gritty suspence.What did Lucas do to improve it? FX improvements, the fly by. But most of the changes are bad for the film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 FX improvementsThat's debatable. A lot of the "new" shots look like mid-90's CG and not what's possible today.And I'm going to disagree with you with your claim that the middle section of Star Wars is "a bore". It's one of the most thrilling movies ever made and it's pace never lets up.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hector J. Guzman 1 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 I remember that interview... it was posted in the "Daily Dose of John Williams". I miss a lot of articles that were in that page.They'll be back very soon Thanks Ricard!!!! At last, something to look forward to!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted August 28, 2002 Share Posted August 28, 2002 Merkel, you don't make sense. One minute you can't believe we don't like the SE even though it's "the same film" and then you immediately follow that up with "I prefer the SE to the orriginals". So if you are allowed to prefer the SE then why am I not allowed to love the original?Neilhe's just saying that he prefers the special editions. he's not saying that the originals are total crap, as you have deemed the special editions. the point he is making (which i have emphasized also) is that it's the same movie. he prefers the new ones because the effects are better and that it doesn't feel dated. i feel the same way. i'll always love the originals, but i will most likely watch the special editions much more than them for the aforementioned reasons.and spare me the "i pity you" crap, since i know it's coming. and just because star wars changed the way movies were made, that doesn't make it perfect. it is a far from perfect film, much like the new ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 The middle section.... is dull corridors with a lot of walking around and shooting. It's a bore. I agree,i always thought the middle part on the Death Star,from they board,the Trash compactor scene,is somewhat boring,with the most boring part of the score to go along.Things get going back when Vader and Obi Wan duel.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 Thank you, tpigeon, that's exactly what I meant.Sorry for being able to express myself very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 he's just saying that he prefers the special editions. he's not saying that the originals are total crap, as you have deemed the special editions. the point he is making (which i have emphasized also) is that it's the same movie. he prefers the new ones because the effects are better and that it doesn't feel dated. i feel the same way. i'll always love the originals, but i will most likely watch the special editions much more than them for the aforementioned reasons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miz 139 Posted August 29, 2002 Share Posted August 29, 2002 The SE is still the same film that came out in 1977But it's not. It is not identical. It isn't a straightforward re-release.There are minor differences made by Lucas to the film (and Greedo should have been shot first), and we all love the films because (among other things) their attention to detail is so great. A film is the sum of its parts, but a great film is the sum of some excellent parts, which makes it better than simply a collection of scenes. In conclusion, there are minor differences in the SE, which have affected the film slightly, which makes it a slightly different film, which means it can be viewed as either slightly better, or slightly worse, than the 1977 original.Oh, and can anybody tell me whether the X-Wing lifting scene from ESB SE is cut short? I've heard rumours, but have no SE copies to compare. If the rumours are true, I absolutely deplore the SE versions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 The Special Edition is an INFERIOR version of Star Wars not SUPERIOR! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Of course! ESB SE is especially bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Actually IMO that is the best SE. Simply because the left the film LARGELY alone. They didn't feel the need to add some goofy crap like a CG musical number. Do I even need to bring that memory up?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted August 30, 2002 Share Posted August 30, 2002 Well, yes, but the TESB changes were a lot more disruptive. Luke screaming and Vader's shuttle are horrible. The other movies already had puppet goofy crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Romão 2,274 Posted August 31, 2002 Share Posted August 31, 2002 What was wrong with vader's shuttle?It expanded the connection between father and son...while luke as being saved into the Millenium Falcon, Vader was returning "home", kinda Luke was. I thought that scene was great. Father and son took diferent but symetrical journeys after their encounter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted September 1, 2002 Share Posted September 1, 2002 What's wrong?Well for once, it TOTALLY destroys the pacing of the sequence. It was perfect and tight, like George and Burtt can do it so perfectly. Tight is the good term. I love how the sequence from Luke's fall into the shaft onto the MF going into Hyperspace flew in the original movie. It's very impressive from a technical POV. Now with that inserted shot, it destroys the pace.Also, there is no need for that scene (and I doubt unfortunately your view of the sequence was really the reason, it's more Lucas going "Uh well why not add this I'm sure some were wondering why he's suddently on the ship. Hey I have some leftover shots from ROTJ let's just put them there"). Your view was very good as an alternative, I liked it. Talking about the ROTJ, indeed it's from Return of the Jedi, so the uniform are different. The look of the shot is also completely different in terms of lenses and framing. It also brings in the stupid Vader replacement from the "Bring my shuttle" to a stupid voice-over person immitating James Earl Jones in a totally unessecary scene. The original scene was SO good in it's minimalist approach. You could feel Darth's anger. Now it doesn't even sound like Vader to start with! Finally, it destroys the music! There's this floating, turning Herrmann-type string portion of the score that goes along the ship escaping the Bespin planet into space that alternates with the fast and speedy portion of the cue. It's almost like the music comes to a screetch and abruptly pauses for that scene. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 1, 2002 Share Posted September 1, 2002 What was wrong with vader's shuttle?Totally destroys the suspense and excitement of the scene by damaging the pacing. Plus, it damages the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 I've always thought the "Special Editions" should be called the "Special Eds". Since the people who made the changes clearly belong in Special Ed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 OK OK OK however, JUST TO BE FAIR to Lucas and Lucasfilm (something I will admit I RARELY DO) some of the changes were good. The CG shots added to ANH worked pretty well. Especially the more dynamic scenes of the Xwings and the TIEs blowing the piss out of each other. The CG added to ESB in the Bespin scenes worked well and was used to good affect not over-doing it. The additions to the Wampa scene earlier in that film were also well done. In ROTJ to extended finale showing the celebrations on other planets worked well. It made you feel like the victory by the Rebels truly had GALACTIC consequences. The only thing I did not understand is how people could celebrate in Coruscant when that was the Empire's home planet. I mean even though they were defeated in that The Empire would still control the planet and I don't think they would stand by while the populace danced and dropped confetti (where did the confetti com from BTW? ) to celebrate their ass whooping. Anyway I just hated the changes that screwed around with the integrity of the films and characters. Like that change made having Greedo shoot first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Well said, I thought the celebrating was premature. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 Damn that was one fast reply! I only typed that like 20 seconds ago and you already read it and replied. This man is a posting DEMON!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 True. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 i don't like Greedo shooting first either. every time i watch it i get sorta mad. that made little sense to me and would have worked a heck of a lot better the way it originally was. little things like that are what i don't like about the special editions.what i do like is seeing all these places like Mos Eisley and Bespin in their glory. some people hated that stuff the most, but i personally loved how we got to see these cities the way they were envisioned and partly the way i envisioned them in my imagination.and the updates to the battles of Yavin and Hoth are terrific too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted September 2, 2002 Share Posted September 2, 2002 If I had to pick one addition to the SE's that I like, it would be the shot of the CG bantha's walking on Tatooine in Return of the Jedi.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCFKevin 0 Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 The only thing they should've done is clean up everything. The picture, the sound, the special effects...enhancing the preexisting special effects to look better is fine with me. As far as adding things or changing things, NO. NONONO. Why, Lucas?! WHY?!?And what's wrong with the shuttle in ESB has been explained nicely by those above, so I needn't go there (though, I did before months ago) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 But some of the added scenes were good, like the extra wampa footage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCFKevin 0 Posted September 3, 2002 Share Posted September 3, 2002 But unnecessary. It's complete overkill. It was fine not seeing it before. It's OKAY if we don't see everything. Look at Jaws. We don't saw the monster until the end of the movie, and that's what made it work. Imagination is a powerful thing, but Lucas just basically said, "Screw the imagination, I'm gonna SHOW YOU everything!"That Jedi Rocks thing was complete bullshit, too. That was just awful. Then he has to stick Boba Fett in it. Ugh... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I thought the wampa footage did add to the movie. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCFKevin 0 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 How so? Taking away the tension? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
King Mark 3,631 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 The Wampa was origianally made to be seen,but apperently they couldn't pull it off in 1980.K.M. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I thought it added tension. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCFKevin 0 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 Well, to each their own, I suppose. I think not seeing the wampa adds to the tension and suspense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted September 4, 2002 Share Posted September 4, 2002 I thought it added tension.It didn't need to be "spelled out" though. The scene worked fine without the extra wampa footage. The scene was tense enough. Williams' music really helped out.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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