.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

Badass BloodBoal, simply badass!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

If I may be so bold as to inquire why did you not buy the Special Edition of the soundtrack? I think the most significant bonus of the regular edition is the film version of Roast Mutton but other than that the Special Edition contains more music and the bonus tracks are really worth having in my opinion. Especially the tracks Erebor and Dwarf Lords are, to lend a phrase from the good old BB book, badass.

[KK 3,307]

Can't agree with everything that's been said here, but badass indeed!

This better show up in this trilogy in some form or another!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yyR_29tvXkQ

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

Can't agree with everything that's been said here

I didn't expect anything else from you, you Shore fanboy. Even if the guy had written only a one-note theme for Erebor, you would have been head over heels with it. I'm sorry, but the best parts of this score are nowhere near as great as the best parts of LOTR. They are still really good, though. The Goblins' material for the win!

I didn't say I disagreed with everything, there were just some parts I didn't agree. And some parts I do agree. The score is not as good as LotR, I acknowledged that on my first few listen. But that's largely because the film is not LotR. The film simply doesn't demand that kind of music. The first half of the score drags because the film largely drags in the first half. The portions that you felt were more "Hugo than Lotr" was worked out accordingly to the tone of the film. I like the fact that Shore took the new music and gave it a more jubilant tone. Simply listen to "Old Friends" and "An Unexpected Journey" and you can tell how Shore intentionally crafts two different musical tones with the same thematic material.

Having said that, the score has its faults. The Dwarven themes are surprisingly brief, but I believe we'll hear Thorin's theme really expand in the other 2 films. And I really wished we got to hear more of Bilbo's theme. Although unlike you, I loved the Radagast material.

Also, I was surprised to see how much you loved all those statements of "A Hobbit's Understanding". They seemed tracked, and it felt cheap and emotionally manipulative. It's one of the reasons that the score on film feels pretty "rehashed".

The reason I'd rank this score above the year's output is because Shore's intelligent thematic approach continues to impress here, and puts other scores to shame. Sure, I was a bit disappointed when I first heard it too, but multiple listens really opened my ears to score's nuances. This isn't as good as the original trilogy, but it's still great music. It's just important to be aware that both LotR and the Hobbit are very different films, and Shore reflects that in the music.

I'm not going to ramble on anymore, but if you want to know why I still love the score, my signature can link you to a much longer rambling (not that I expect you to read it).

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

I didn't say I disagreed with everything, there were just some parts I didn't agree. And some parts I do agree. The score is not as good as LotR, I acknowledged that on my first few listen. But that's largely because the film is not LotR. The film simply doesn't demand that kind of music. The first half of the score drags because the film largely drags in the first half. The portions that you felt were more "Hugo than Lotr" was worked out accordingly to the tone of the film. I like the fact that Shore took the new music and gave it a more jubilant tone. Simply listen to "Old Friends" and "An Unexpected Journey" and you can tell how Shore intentionally crafts two different musical tones with the same thematic material.

I'm tired of people going like: "You didn't like the score/film because it's just not like LOTR". No. John Carter is not LOTR, yet I love the score (just to take a recent example). As I've said, I really like cues such as The Adventure Begins or Dreaming Of Bag-End, where Shore gives us something different, or at least more "jubilant", as you say, than LOTR. The parts I actually like the less are mostly the ones where Shore tries to compose epic music similar to LOTR, such as Smaug's attack, or the battle of Azanulbizar, where it feels to me like a subpar versions of his work on the previous trilogy.

While that was never my intention, I see where you're going. I was simply trying to explain that the film is largely the reason why some may think the score drags a bit. And I actually like the examples you refer to, and the action music is epic.

About the first A Hobbit's Understanding statement (during the Troll-Hoard scene), while I like it, I agree with you that it feels cheap and emotionally manipulative in the film (more on that in my review of the film I'll try to write soon).

Looking forward to that. I can already see the title now... "An Unexpected Failure"...

I'm not going to ramble on anymore, but if you want to know why I still love the score, my signature can link you to a much longer rambling (not that I expect you to read it).

I'll read that soon...

I guess I should be afraid...

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

The problem is that the dragging portions are dialogue heavy, unlike your counter example. One could argue that TTT CRs also drag a bit because of so many dialogue heavy sequences. Underscore for such scenes are usually not very interesting.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Faleel 5,360]

I felt the same as you on first listen (well, almost) but I have really warmed up to it.

I wish A Thunder Battle had been an epic battle version of Dangerous Passes.

The Fireworks music IS heard in the film, its when Gandalf and Bilbo are talking about his fireworks (duh!).

I also want to point out that string ostinato's do not RCP make.

[Incanus 5,716]

I found that this score takes time to get into it. But the more I listen the more I appreciate its intricacies. Of course I am very partial as I am such a huge fan of Shore's work for the trilogy and to me his work for the Hobbit is the next logical step on this exploration of Middle Earth through music.

I'm not going to ramble on anymore, but if you want to know why I still love the score, my signature can link you to a much longer rambling (not that I expect you to read it).

Great ramblings KK.

Wait till I start rambling.

I am on page 9 of my analysis and I haven't even covered all the themes yet.

[KK 3,307]

I'm not going to ramble on anymore, but if you want to know why I still love the score, my signature can link you to a much longer rambling (not that I expect you to read it).

Great ramblings KK.

Wait till I start rambling.

I am on page 9 of my analysis and I haven't even covered all the themes yet.

Thanks Incanus. I appreciate the compliment coming from you. But it seems like your own rambling will dwarf (pun intended) my own greatly.

[Incanus 5,716]

I might have to consider condensing things as I am sure my guesses will fly wide of the mark in comparison to Doug Adams' more in-depth knowledge of the music and musical theory but I will present my ramblings here none the less.

Oh and BloodBoal your observations and review of the music both in film and on album was a very entertaining read. And you are obviously getting the hang of the art of long posts/reviews (not that the Tintin review left any doubt of that).

[Jilal 569]

I also want to point out that string ostinato's do not RCP make.

So you really are from Russia... I knew it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[gkgyver 1,645]

Morons, the Hobbit's Understanding music is absolutely lovely in the troll-hoard scene!

The oddest scoring choice in the movie (aside from the reusal of LotR music) for me was at the beginning, when Gandalf peeks through the window. Why such a menacing brass chord? Even if Bilbo is intimidated by Gandalf, he still knows he would do no evil to him. Curious.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Morons, the Hobbit's Understanding music is absolutely lovely in the troll-hoard scene!.

I agree, and it makes perfect sense that its there.

Gandalf tells Bilbo he hopes he will never have to take a life, something Bilbo remembers when having the opportunity to slay Gollum.

And decades later the pity of Bilbo rules the fate of all, and Gandalf tells Frodo the importance of pity, with that theme playing.

Its a wonderfull connection

[Brónach 1,302]

The oddest scoring choice in the movie (aside from the reusal of LotR music) for me was at the beginning, when Gandalf peeks through the window. Why such a menacing brass chord? Even if Bilbo is intimidated by Gandalf, he still knows he would do no evil to him. Curious.

I actually thought that awesome.

[KK 3,307]

So did I. It added to whole vibe of this rather bizarre day for young Bilbo Baggins.

[Incanus 5,716]

So did I. It added to whole vibe of this rather bizarre day for young Bilbo Baggins.

Yes and there is really a sense of suspence and even danger from Bilbo's point of view. He just dodged this stranger's offer to go on an adventure and is still scared of what the wizard might do. Before I saw the film that passage sounded a bit out of place but after seeing it, the tense small stinger makes perfect sense.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

PJ's films aren't subtle. Thats not their strength.

Also its only obvious if you know the scores through and through. Not to much to the average movie goer.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Most people only know the Fellowship theme.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

When I heard the score, I thought it was cool that Shore referenced one of my favourite themes. But in the film it repeats ad nauseum, which made it all seem cheap. BB's quote just of me points to my curiosity why no one else felt that way.

And Stefan, people can recognize many of the main themes from LotR. Maybe not the underscore (anything with choir these days qualifies as LotR to average moviegoer), but you'd be surprised by how many recognize Shore's themes, the fellowship theme, the Rohan theme, etc.

Its even more so with the more loyal fans. Anyone whose familiar with LotR can recognize "A Hobbit's Understanding". Unfortunately, its not the case with new Hobbit material. So when people hear all these past themes quoted, they think rehash.

As BB said, I was surprised by how many prominent film critics were picking on Shore's score, claiming that the crew was using his emotional music from LotR to rile up nostalgia and similar emotions with this film. It's clear that the LotR music touched many people at the time.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

When I heard the score, I thought it was cool that Shore referenced one of my favourite themes. But in the film it repeats ad nauseum.

Come on! It only appears TWICE in the entire film!

It appears at least 3 times. And The theme seems to be used more sparingly in LotR, making its emotional impact all the more potent.

And Stefan, people can recognize many of the main themes from LotR. Maybe not the underscore (anything with choir these days qualifies as LotR to average moviegoer), but you'd be surprised by how many recognize the Shore theme, the fellowship theme, the Rohan theme, etc.

Yeah, the Shore theme is awesome!

Bah!

Blame AutoCorrect and stupidity on my part.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I agree with BB. I think I heard it twice in the film. It's possible there's a third time.

Three is not the same as ad nauseum....

Also these scores are Leitmotif based works. So themes re-appear as connective tissue between characters and events. It's part of the style.

The only moments the music didn't quite work was when they quoted a theme that was inconstant with the characters or situation (Lorien theme for Rivendell Elves, Nazgul for Azog)

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It was nowhere near as bad as the Nazgul theme. But the first time I saw the film and heard that theme I was like "Huh?"They are nowhere near Lorien?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I guess it's just because the Rivendell theme really isn't action music material.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[KK 3,307]

When I heard the score, I thought it was cool that Shore referenced one of my favourite themes. But in the film it repeats ad nauseum.

Come on! It only appears TWICE in the entire film!

It appears at least 3 times. And The theme seems to be used more sparingly in LotR, making its emotional impact all the more potent.

Then, please, tell me what was the third time it was used (apart from the Troll-hoard scene and the scene with Gollum).

In the scene where Gandalf is having his moment Galadriel.

And Stefan, you can't use the technique of leitmotif as a means of bringing back all sorts of themes and motifs without much variation.

Let's look at "A Hobbit's Understanding". It shows up twice in FotR I believe. Once for Frodo's conversation with Gandalf in Moria, and once Frodo's departure upon the Breaking of the Fellowship. It's the same theme, but notice how its written and arranged differently (the former being intimate and the latter being more emotionally forward). Never does the theme feel overused in the film because its treated with some variety.

In the Hobbit, the theme appears exactly the same way as it did in Moria and twice for that matter. The troll-hoard quotation is fine, and even the Gollum would have been acceptable if there was sort of variation, but there isn't. And it doesn't help that this theme is closely tied to incredibly emotional oments in LotR, so to hear it quoted in scenes where that kind of emotion isn't presented makes it seem cheap and manipulative.

Then there's the third statement, which appears in Gandalf's conversation. It takes a page right out of the Breaking of the Fellowship with no variation and it has no place being there. Not to mention it makes the poor writing for Gandalf's little revelation about Bilbo all the more laughable (seriously that scene was someone trying to force emotion down your throat).

I'll elaborate in regards to this in my rant to come

And one could argue those elves were Lorien warriors brought with Galadriel.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,716]

And one could argue those elves were Lorien warriors brought with Galadriel.

Actually those warriors killing the Wargs were obviously the same Elves that returned with Elrond to Rivendell and he even references killing a group of Orcs near the secret passage. So they can't say it more clearly than that. Plus Galadriel seems to have been only telepathically in Rivendell and her vanishing after her talk with Gandalf would indicate that.

[KK 3,307]

Right, I'd knew be wrong, my memory doesn't serve me well.

But my point remains. Theme got better treatment in LotR. And while its presence in the Hobbit may be justified, The way at which it is used is at a fault.

This happens all throughout the film, whee the presence of leitmotifs are justified, but presentation is lacking.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yeah! Fuck you Howie!

[Quintus 5,399]

John Howe is scratching his head with the rest of us where Jacko is concerned, Steef!

[gkgyver 1,645]

Did someone consider that Elrond was sent to help the company by Galadriel?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Lucas apologist!

[Incanus 5,716]

Did someone consider that Elrond was sent to help the company by Galadriel?

Now that would just complicate matters further. Unless there is a secret pact between Gandalf, Galadriel and Elrond to drive the Dwarves into Rivendell by not annoucing their aid in any way at any point before or after the attack.

The whole Warg chase at this point of the film was entirely pointless, especially when you add Radagast zooming in and out of the picture like in a strange Benny Hill sketch. Thorin's emnity for Elves could have relented, the company arrived to Rivendell without their ponies and supplies and would have still genuinely needed help and thus Gandalf might have persuaded Thorin to see reason in the face of such real obstacles. But alas no. Of course Azog's antagonist role needed to be fleshed out and PJ came up with this "Thorin's pride obstacle" to show us more of the Warg riders. But it ended up in a lot of running around for nothing, Elvish deux ex machina and a completely unbelievable and convenient secret passage to Rivendell where Thorin had his relatively minor grumble/hissy fit but was still pretty OK with food and rest in the end.

The apperance of the Lothlorien theme in the Warg chase was odd and out of place when you later find out that the Elves are from Rivendell and presenting us with a red herring in form of the theme to keep up guessing who saved the company was rather inane. But the setting of the theme is a cool one in itself.

[Faleel 5,360]

PJ came up with this "Thorin's pride obstacle"

He didn't really come up with it, he just took the idea from how Thorin acts in Mirkwood, and ran with it.

[Incanus 5,716]

PJ came up with this "Thorin's pride obstacle"

He didn't really come up with it, he just took the idea from how Thorin acts in Mirkwood, and ran with it.

He obviously ran too far and so it became a nuisance to the story.