John Powell Question

[lune856 0]

Hi all, I know this isn't J.William's related question but I'll be so much grateful if someone can please help me out here.

Recently I've been studying John Powell's score (How to Train Your Dragon.) I'm trying my best to analyze the score with my knowledge but it seems almost impossible.

Question) Focus Hiccup (John Powell from How to Train your Dragon)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z8MR5jpK_i8
(00:22~)

*Attached score is in CONCERT

Previous to the Bar 17, String & Brass are playing repeated ostinato derived from C Phrygian Dominant scale (C Db E F G Ab B(b) )
At the bar 17 (00:22) music is at the climax and horns and trumpets are playing the melody based on C triad and B triad (Timpani playing G bass note). However, If we look at the winds/strings, they are playing the notes that don't seem relevant to C triad nor B triad. By looking at the score, there are so many dissonance notes even on strong beats but if you listen to the music it just sounds amazing.
I understand that fast wind/string runs tend to get away with dissonance thanks to their rapid movement. Here, however, the notes winds/strings play seem too far from the harmony horns are playing.
Any clue please?

Please forgive me for poor picture of the score. It's not allowing me to upload anything bigger than 400kb

[Ludwig 1,120]

This is a complicated little passage. The cue starts with the ostinato on C with a Phrygian inflection (the Db). But notice at 0:14 that the ostinato is transposed up to E, so now that becomes the tonal centre for the moment. Bars 15-16 show this, with E both starting and ending each ostinato figure, and again with a Phrygian inflection (now F-natural).

So with bar 17, the dyad (two-note chord) in the brass suggests E minor, giving some harmony to the ostinato. The D#-F# dyad that follows is actually a kind of "pivot chord" back to C, since they lead to E-G but now with C as tonic (as it is strongly in the bass - not shown in your example). This chord also relates to what happened at the start of the cue, not only returning to C as a tonic, but also by the D#-F# itself. Notice its appearance at 0:08 in the brass over the C ostinato.

The wind flourishes over these dyads help the music modulate back to C. The first half of the flourish essentially outlines the E Phrygian mode but with the added notes of Ab and Eb, which are also part of the E ostinato from the previous bars, but written enharmonically as G# and D# (see the winds in bar 15).

The second half of the flourish begins in the E Phrygian again but on its second note (F). But notice that the 3rd sixteenth of this second half starts to form parallel 5ths with the lower winds, and that on the 4th beat of the bar, the 5th is on C, a hint that C is returning as tonic. The last four sixteenths then form neighbouring parallel 5ths around C and resolve emphatically to a C major chord, reaching a climax just as C is restored to its place as tonic.

Whew! That was complicated.

[tedfud 38]

Hi Ludwig

I'm curious . Why is the ostinato phrygian ? isn't it c,e,e,e flat ,e flat ,d flat e flat,d flat, c...wouldn't that be considered octatonic ?

and again in the woodwind runs in bar 17 e,f,g,a flat . wouldn't Phrygian have an a ?

ah.....sorry my bad. Just understood that it's a "dominant phrygian". Didn't know of this ....as you where !

t

[Ludwig 1,120]

Actually, you could see it either way. I just meant regular Phrygian with added notes. Yes, you could say the flourish is octatonic, but then that interpretation breaks down when we get the second half, which I rather see as a normalized Phrygian. Also, the ostinato isn't pure Phrygian, just inflected by it. Again, you could say octatonic. I just hear the flat-2 thing as strongly Phrygian, much like Powell's ostinato in the Bourne films, which this one strongly resembles.

[tedfud 38]

yes it does...really emphasising that flat 2nd

t

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

12 horns? 6 trombones? Tell me more Georgie boy, tell me more!

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Speaking of Powell, in a perfect world, he would be working on Marvel films. Silvestri gets Cap/Avengers films, Doyle sticks with Thor, and Powell does all the rest. Maybe Shore or Goldenthal for Doctor Strange.

A man can dream.

[Koray Savas 2,251]

You could toss Giacchino a couple too.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

He'd probably do something great for Guardians.

[lune856 0]

Thanks everyone and especially Ludwig for your great explanation. It really helped me so much to look at this score in different perspective. I guess I was obsessed with scales too much.

Would you be kind enough to let me share your post with others as well? I've also asked this question on v.i. control forum and I'm sure they'll be very grateful to see your posting. Please let me know and thank you so so much again.

Best

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

12 horns? 6 trombones? Tell me more Georgie boy, tell me more!

That's pretty standard brass size for a modern film score. Personally I find the 'bigger is better' default a bit annoying. Gone are the days of 4 or 3 horns. Everything has to be 'epic.'

/rant

[tedfud 38]

heretic !....and your avatar is sacrilegious

t

[Ludwig 1,120]

Thanks everyone and especially Ludwig for your great explanation. It really helped me so much to look at this score in different perspective. I guess I was obsessed with scales too much.

Would you be kind enough to let me share your post with others as well? I've also asked this question on v.i. control forum and I'm sure they'll be very grateful to see your posting. Please let me know and thank you so so much again.

Yes, of course. But be sure to mention tedfud's keen insight about an octatonic interpretation as well. The more I think about it, the more it seems it's both - an octatonic segment used in a way that suggests the Phrygian mode. Or a Phrygian segment decorated in a way to suggest octatonic. Either way.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

12 horns? 6 trombones? Tell me more Georgie boy, tell me more!

That's pretty standard brass size for a modern film score. Personally I find the 'bigger is better' default a bit annoying. Gone are the days of 4 or 3 horns. Everything has to be 'epic.'

/rant

Doesn't particularly add much for me in vertical writing. 6 players probably can sound more thrilling and ballsy than 12. But the horizontal possibilities are... arousing.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

12 horns? 6 trombones? Tell me more Georgie boy, tell me more!

That's pretty standard brass size for a modern film score. Personally I find the 'bigger is better' default a bit annoying. Gone are the days of 4 or 3 horns. Everything has to be 'epic.'

/rant

Doesn't particularly add much for me in vertical writing. 6 players probably can sound more thrilling and ballsy than 12. But the horizontal possibilities are... arousing.

I agree, but these scores rarely (if it all) exploit that. It's almost always unison, or split into half for an antiphonal effect (and to give the players a rest), like in this HTTYD cue.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Oops, inverted vertical/horizontal. But you know what I meant.

[Sharkissimo 1,973]

Williams has 12 horns for when Cruise and Fanning are trapped in the tripod basket in WAR OF THE WORLDS. He has them do four note clusters with staggered entrances - on each is two sord and one stopped. Great effect.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

I was just listening to that the other night and wondering how much he had augmented the brass for it. Really nasty effect to be sure.

[karelm 2,915]

Williams has 12 horns for when Cruise and Fanning are trapped in the tripod basket in WAR OF THE WORLDS. He has them do four note clusters with staggered entrances - on each is two sord and one stopped. Great effect.

Yes, but with Williams you can be sure it was still concisely written for twelve horns. With others, it just seems like they are playing the same line. Would 8 horns have sounded so different for Powell? And by the way, he's a great writer who really knows his stuff so I wouldn't lump him in to the other side of the industry who would use 12 horns in the same way that Spinal Tap wants an amplifier that goes up to 11. Regarding JW, I recall reading in "On the Track" that Close Encounters used 3 tubas. So when he wants the other worldly sound, he'll do some pretty extreme stuff.

[Dixon Hill 4,234]

Seems like in Powell's case, he just wants to write for 6 horns in a way that would destroy their lips, so he adds a second section.

[RedBard 71]

12 horns? 6 trombones? Tell me more Georgie boy, tell me more!

That's pretty standard brass size for a modern film score. Personally I find the 'bigger is better' default a bit annoying. Gone are the days of 4 or 3 horns. Everything has to be 'epic.'

/rant

Doesn't particularly add much for me in vertical writing. 6 players probably can sound more thrilling and ballsy than 12. But the horizontal possibilities are... arousing.

I agree, but these scores rarely (if it all) exploit that. It's almost always unison, or split into half for an antiphonal effect (and to give the players a rest), like in this HTTYD cue.

I agree also.

Now imagine if it was 12 individual horn parts and 6 individual trombone parts.

John Powell -->