The Battle of the Five Armies SPOILERS ALLOWED Discussion Thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Poor Tauriel! I wonder what happens to her now.

Spin-off movie!

[KK 3,307]

And once they see FOTR: where's Tauriel? And Radagast? Where are they???

Don't worry, they'll be included In the upcoming 20th anniversary edition!!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Why not the EE?

[KK 3,307]

Because there's already a FOTR EE.

Now they can re-do with a better looking Gollum, replace Ian Holm in the prologue, add in a Radagast-Gandalf scene before Gandalf gets trapped by Saruman, and add Tauriel to the fellowship!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

We can replace Frodo with Tauriel!

[gkgyver 1,645]

gyver, you are quite simply wrong. I don't care what the film makers say. All of the exposition regarding Sauron, the Rings etc happened in LOTR and not The Hobbit. Because they didn't need to re-establish it there.

If I were showing someone these 6 films I would never start with The Hobbit.

Would Gollum's schizophrenia even make sense? Since its not fully showb till TTT.

Whats the point of this Frodo character? Who exactly are Hobbits? It would be really weird to have all that explained in the 4th film instead of the first.

I'm most definitely not wrong, and saying "I don't care what the film makers say" is frankly just a very ignorant way of trying to keep things as sacrosanct as they were before this trilogy, for your convenience. It's easier to stick the nose in the air and say it doesn't make sense than even trying to wrap your head around the fact that some things are left unexplained and in the air in order to be explained in a later film in the series. Like the Necromancer remaining an ominous presence until Sauron is explained in Fellowship.

Saruman's "leave Sauron to me" is such an OBVIOUS cliffhanger for the following movie that there can really be no discussion for what the film is intended.

On the contrary, if everything was explained in the Hobbit, you'd bitch and whine that it makes LotR redundant.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I fully understand that they didn't explain these things in The Hobbit. It would have been repeating something most people already knew.

It would indeed be redundant. So im happy they didn't go that way.

[KK 3,307]

No one wants more explanation in The Hobbit GK, we're just saying that you should logically watch LOTR before this trilogy. You're not quite seeing the full picture here.

These singular moments make sense to YOU because you've seen it all. But without any prior knowledge, they can admittedly be confusing and even distracting. They wouldn't understand the full depth of what's going on.

Obviously it makes sense for the filmmakers to say you should start from AUJ, that's just good marketing.

[Alan 689]

Why does everything need to be spelled out? Do audiences really need to be spoon fed everything and should filmmakers pander to the lowest common denominator?

Ok so in years to come people might have questions about who or what some of the things are that are touched on in The Hobbit, but ultimately those things become clear when they become main plot points in LOTR. I see no harm in showing people the six films in chronological order now that The Hobbit is complete. Things like "what are Hobbits?" are explained well enough by the opening of the trilogy and the character of Bilbo himself. It doesn't need a nice little explanation.

[KK 3,307]

If you watch the Hobbit, and then watch LOTR. Suddenly Bilbo's explanation of Hobbits and elves and all will seem pretty redundant too. FOTR treats like you're meeting characters/places like Galadriel, Elrond, Rivendell, the Shire, etc for the first time. I'm not sure why you guys are so adamant on the whole chronological thing.

The Hobbit films were always going to be companion pieces to LOTR anyways.

[gkgyver 1,645]

Why does everything need to be spelled out? Do audiences really need to be spoon fed everything and should filmmakers pander to the lowest common denominator?

Ok so in years to come people might have questions about who or what some of the things are that are touched on in The Hobbit, but ultimately those things become clear when they become main plot points in LOTR. I see no harm in showing people the six films in chronological order now that The Hobbit is complete. Things like "what are Hobbits?" are explained well enough by the opening of the trilogy and the character of Bilbo himself. It doesn't need a nice little explanation.

In fact, I think the Hobbit is enjoyed best NOT having seen LotR. Because, as we see very well by the reactions here, it leads to expectations. Plus, the Necromancer story would actually be suspenseful. Our joy is just to see how the plot is visualized. Future generations will see something else in the films, namely a suspenseful plot.

Had I been a Tolkien fan for years before LotR, I would have had problems with LotR as well. Putting the LotR movies in a shrine doesn't help enjoying the Hobbit.

[Faleel 5,359]

Just a brief (edit: brief-ish ) collection of thoughts on Thorin's death, which was one of the strongest aspects of the film for me.

Firstly the setting: this frozen and decaying scene is wonderfully full of metaphor. The dwarves here have moved into a stage of fixed and inevitable fate, frozen in place, and already beyond the light and life of the warfare below, part way to death.

The setting is incredibly bleak and, for this viewer anyway, confirmed that this was not to be a story of heroic victory and return. This is a chilling piece of narrative.

The frozen lake and waterfall serves to suggest a number of connotations: surely the suggestion of Dante's inferno that beyond the fire the final evil is sunk in just such a frozen lake; the link back to Thorin's vision of evil swimming beneath the surface of the golden "lake" and the foreboding that he will sink himself; the waterfall edge to remind us that there is no escape for the dwarf lord and the opportunity to show us Azog and Thorin willing to destroy the very ground on which they stand in their confrontation.

This leads me onto Azog. I have mentioned once before but I think Azog stands not just as antagonist but as an inevitable doom for Thorin. From the moment they began the quest to seek the treasure, the Orc has been an unshakable presence, pursuing and seeking vengeance in an almost Fury like manner. In a meta-narrative sense he is the personification of the inevitability of the Tragedy of which Thorin is cast as the hero.

As Azog smashes the ice beneath them, the sense of mutually assured destruction builds but when he sinks alone there is a moment of belief that perhaps, after all, Thorin will escape his fate. And yet as we watch Thorin look at Azog floating away beneath the ice, we see him start to follow, still bound to him. As a viewer you clench your fists and will Thorin to simply stop and let him go but there is inexorability here, step by step.

And so in the final moments Thorin is left with no option but to allow Azog's blade and death to finally come to fruition. There is no escape, and never has been.

Whether by luck or judgement the implications of this finale emerge as almost deft. The impact on the battle vs. that of Beorn and the eagles is left to the viewer to weigh, in deciding what they make of Thorin's price paid and redemption.

His final scene with Bilbo gets us to his famous last words in the text in a way which is convincing and not at all twee (and rounds off the aspect of Bilbo as an external conscience).

I know that many would like to see a funeral but the scene of the dwarves gathering around him on the ice worked very well for me. It was a cold, hard death of a flawed man (well, dwarf) and that is where his story ends. Perhaps Thorin goes on to pass into legend and be a watchful totem, as Balin and the funeral would suggest or perhaps he remains a friend who did both good and bad, but is forgiven, as Bilbo suggests, but that is left for the viewer to decide.

I've rambled on too long, so I'll stop, but a jolly well done sequence in my view.

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?post=808559;sb=post_time;so=DESC;forum_view=forum_view_collapsed;;page=unread#unread

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Finally someone else who gets it!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

Finally someone who has over-gotten this! Bloody PJ apologists!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Azog is the fate Thorin deserves!

[Incanus 5,715]

Azog is the fate Thorin deserves!

That is true. He is king of douchebaggery, nothing more!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Wrong! He's the last man standing when it comes to the villains in this trilogy.

The fire drake and flaming eye thing are swiftly dispatched. But it is Azog who is the real Nemesis. Remember, him is his brood Bolg are the only one making actual casualties in the film!

[Incanus 5,715]

Wrong! He's the last man standing when it comes to the villains in this trilogy.

The fire drake and flaming eye thing are swiftly dispatched. But it is Azog who is the real Nemesis. Remember, him is his brood Bolg are the only one making actual casualties in the film!

I meant Thorin Stefan. He deserved to die. He was a major pain in the ass.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

On the contrary. Thorin is a fine example of the tragic hero. Like Boromir, Denethor's son, and Theoden King he fell into blackness, consumed by arrogant desire or dotage, but rose up into the light for one last heroic act!

[Incanus 5,715]

No he was a douchebag most of the way. His final personal combat with Azog doesn't count. Selfish foolishness.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The Thorin we see in AUJ was not selfish at all!

[Incanus 5,715]

Yes he was! Pampered self-centered and haughty son of a beggar-king with streak of self-entitlement a mile wide!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

A proud King from the line of Dwarves!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

A proud King from the line of Dwarves!

A childish fool on a journey to entitled fever dreams of glory more like it!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The shot of Radagast in telepathic contact with Gandalf is also a reuse from AUJ.

[Incanus 5,715]

The shot of Radagast in telepathic contact with Gandalf is also a reuse from AUJ.

Yes that was rather cheap I thought. Much like Thorin in these films.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Broken record?

[Incanus 5,715]

Broken record?

Never forgive, never forget!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yep!

[Bilbo 3,709]

I saw PJs daughter's cameo in the Lake-Town opening but I missed PJ completely.

As I said, he's not in there. They probably kept his cameo for the EE (like with ROTK).

Wait! Acutally, he may be in there:

(PJ's dogs can be seen as well before Smaug attacks)

Katie Jackson can be seen in a boat during Smaug's attack and Peter Jackson walks past Bilbo with a chair, as he makes his way to Bag End's furniture-auction.

http://newboards.theonering.net/forum/gforum/perl/gforum.cgi?guest=126405075&do%3Dpost_view_flat%3Bsb%3Dpost_time%3Bso%3DDESC%3Bpost%3D807348=View+Flat+Mode#807348

I'm not entirely sure about that. I think we only see the guy's back, so I don't see how you could recognize PJ... I guess someone who'll see the film soon can confirm that. Where's Bilbo Skywalker?

Catching up on this now, this has probably been answered by now but in my three viewings I have not spotted. PJ. Spotted Katie in Lake-Town on the second viewing. Every time I expected him to be at the auction but I genuinely can't see him. Maybe on viewing 4.

[Barnald 365]

You could easily spot the smaller scale doubles in the LOTR films too. That's just one we have to overlook.

But Radagast's chanting from AUJ was very obvious. The eagle thing is a great shout. I hope this means both sequences will be changed dramatically for the EE and that these were just cheap stop-gaps. Maybe Beorn's arrival will play out very differently. The eagles should arrive before him. It should be him that really turns the tide.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You could easily spot the smaller scale doubles in the LOTR films too. That's just one we have to overlook.

But Radagast's chanting from AUJ was very obvious.

I wonder if it's like the ROTK EE and PJ will shoot some extra footage for it!

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

When I want pure, unadulterated Tolkien, i grab one of the books. I do not expect to find it in cinema, ever!

Both work for me on very different levels and for different reasons.

PJ's films I love for their visual grandness. The way he often make very simple idealism and emotions work in a truly epic way. But it has nothing of the complexity of The Lord Of The Rings as written on the page....it's true home.

No film could ever hope to capture that.

I agree with this completely.

Every time I expected him to be at the auction but I genuinely can't see him. Maybe on viewing 4.

He's not at the auction proper. Apparently, he appears right before it, as Bilbo is walking towards Bag-End. He comes accross Hobbits carrying his furnitures and apparently, one of them is PJ.

Yeah, I was looking out for him there too (basically anywhere in The Shire) and didn't spot him. As I said, I'll pay closer attention to that hobbit next time.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

Maybe the guy who said he saw PJ was wrong. Consider that, too!

I'd rather have you pay attention to the unreleased music.

It'll be either Friday or next Sunday before I see it again. Jay will probably have everything solved by then

Maybe it has been pointed out but in the end credits, the picture of Bilbo is a doctored version of this.

They just replaced the LEGO minifig with an acorn. I laughed when I noticed it.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Bilbo 3,709]

Maybe the guy who said he saw PJ was wrong. Consider that, too!

I'd rather have you pay attention to the unreleased music.

It'll be either Friday or next Sunday before I see it again. Jay will probably have everything solved by then

Nah, don't worry. I doubt he'll pay much attention to the music on his first viewing. He'll have to many things to process at the same time.

By they way, in case you missed it, here's a list of all the unreleased material I noticed so far: http://www.jwfan.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=24673&page=102#entry1070718

As I said in this post, everything from Battle For The Mountain onwards is where I completely lost track of the music, so that's where I'm counting on you to tell us what's missing, and how all the material on the OST fits chronologically!

Maybe it has been pointed out but in the end credits, the picture of Bilbo is a doctored version of this.

They just replaced the LEGO minifig with an acorn. I laughed when I noticed it.

Haha, nice catch!

Ok. I've bookmarked your post. Pity I didn't get to properly see it Friday night. Could have printed it off and memorized it on the train! (Reading The Road to Middle-Earth though so it isn't like I was bored).

[Incanus 5,715]

I just remembered that there is a line in BotFA where Bilbo is talking to Thorin and saying how he should honour his promise and help the people of Lake-Town- He goes on and angrily says he vouched too for Thorin implying also his word is now in question and that his friend has lost his way because of the dragon-sickness. So does the film expect that people have watched the DoS EE as the moment comes only in the extended version where Bilbo actually steps up and vouches Thorin's character to the people and master of Lake-Town. In the theatrical version Bilbo makes no statements.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

So?

In the TE of DoS Thorin states that he is sure his father still lives, yet nowhere in that film or the next one is there any pay off.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

There were some minor issues regarding Arwen and Aragorn too if i recall correctly.

[Incanus 5,715]

Well we are meant to watch only the EEs. It all makes sense.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

The TE's should be seen as mere work prints. Or trailers. An abridged preview of the complete version of the film coming out on Blu-ray.

[Incanus 5,715]

The TE's should be seen as mere work prints. Or trailers. A first look of the complete version of the film coming out on Blu-ray.

Reserve your copy now!