Piano Composing

[RomanticStrings 10]

Does anyone have any advice for composing for an orchestra with a piano? I want to do that, but I have trouble. I want to write for a full orchestra, or various groups, but I can't play something that I think will work, and i want to write it down on paper. Basically, I want to compose using the same methods as John Williams. So, can anyone give me advice, like how to write for the strings, and adding any flourishes? Ask if you are confused, and I'll try to clear up what I'm looking for. Thank you.

~Conor

[Trumpeteer 302]

I've always wonderd how he does it myself, especially when it comes to writing all those flourishes and frenetic pieces for brass.

Can anyone help Conor (and me, though only to quench my curiosity)?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

I've often tried to picture Williams at the piano, playing the last section of Summon the Heroes, with all the frenetic brass and trumpet fluorishes you guys referred to. It's pretty funny to imagine!

Ray Barnsbury

[Morn 8]

I think he probably only plays the parts on the piano and puts them together on the page. He probably uses his mind to see if it works together.

[jsawruk 0]

Exactly. I imagine he would work by playing each orchestral choir seperately, unless they are still too complex.

I will give advice on piano+orchestra later. But I will tell you this much: keep the orchestration light when the piano is playing, and be sure to have moments which highlight the orchestra as well, otherwise too much attention on the piano diminishes the value of the orchestra.

[Frosty 0]

Do you want to use the piano as a dominat voice or an integral part of the orchestra? i.e. solo voice or orchestral voice...

[Frosty 0]

I will add this:

Writing for piano and writing for orchestra are two different thinks. DO NOT assume that what sounds good on a piano will sound good with an orchestra.

[jsawruk 0]

I still am uncertain if you want to write for piano, or if you just want to write at the piano in order to make an orchestral score.

If you want to write for the piano, here's some pointers I can offer you:

First, the piano is a wide and versitile instrument, and should be used as such.

The modern piano came into being at the start of the classical period, evolving from the fortepiano (the modern piano is called the pianoforte). Therefore, it is not appropriate to write music in a pre-classical style on the piano, even though a lot of Baroque keyboard music sounds good on it.

Piano writing is generally homophonic. However, contrapuntal writing on the piano can sound wonderful and should be used just as often. When scoring for piano with orchestra, avoid contrapuntal textures in the piano and the orchestra, for the sound will be lost and jumbled. Instead, keep the piano homophonic and the orchestra contrapuntal, both homophonic, or the piano contrapuntal with very light orchestration.

During the classical period, the piano was mostly a chamber instrument. It was used particularly as accompaniment for songs and sonatas, or alone in piano sonatas. It also was used frequently with string groups such as a piano trio (violin, cello, piano). If you are trying to write in a classical style, do not put the piano as part of the orchestra unless you are writing a Piano Concerto. There are many wonderful Piano Concerti worth looking at from this time. When writing piano in a classical style, basslines should be kept relatively simple and may include waltz and march patterns, alternating octaves in the left hand, or most commonly the Alberti bass.

The role of the piano remained essentially the same during the romantic period, but it became even more virtuosic. It may have been used occassionally in the orchestra, but its primary use was still solo works, concerti, and songs (Lieder). The composer Liszt, a piano virtuoso, extended the piano technique by creating the three-handed technique. Basically, the left hand would start an arpeggio which would be picked up by the right hand. As the right hand played the arpeggio, the left hand would cross over and play a note or two ABOVE the right hand, before picking up the arpeggio on the way back down. Arpeggios were very common figures in romantic era piano music, as were repetitive eighth note basslines.

The next big developments in piano music came with the Impressionists, namely Satie and Debussy. Satie greatly simplified piano music by using simplified left hand patterns and simple melodies. Debussy used the whole tone and other non-traditional scales, combined with extended tertian harmony (9ths, 11ths, 13ths) and a very rubato quality to his music. By this time, the piano was common in the orchestra.

Early 20th century saw the full integration of the piano into the orchestra as an orchestral instrument. This is best demonstrated in Stravinsky's ballet "Petrushka". In this ballet, the piano has both fore- and background material and is used quite effectively.

On the otherside of the early 20th century was serialism. Schoenberg and Berg created some unique piano textures using serialism, such as Schoenberg's Op. 25 Piano Suite.

By this time, jazz was becoming common as well. In jazz, the left hand of the piano would often double the walking bassline, while the right hand plays syncopated harmony using 9ths, 11ths, 13ths, etc. I don't know much about jazz piano, but a listen to Vince Guaraldi and Thelonious Monk will certainly guide you in this direction, as will of course the ragtime classics of Scott Joplin. For orchestral jazz writing with piano, look no further than Gershwin. Rhapsody in Blue is a great piece for this, as are several others.

Experimentalism came to the piano starting with Charles Ives. Henry Cowell asked for extended techniques such as playing inside the piano, such as in The Banshee. John Cage extended the piano by placing material inside it to create a prepared piano. Listen to his sonatas for a unique piano sound.

Film music was also coming about. The piano was essential in film music from day 1. It has been a permanent member of the film orchestra, although it often is in the background (listen to the opening title of Star Wars. Can you hear the piano? It's there!).

Finally, there is late experimentalism. We see Messiaen use total (integral) serialism to create intricate piano textures, as well as his use of unique modes and rhythms in pieces such as Vingt Regards... Stockhausen wrote a lot of Klavierstücke, the most interesting being XI because of the concept of Augenblickmusik. Steve Reich phased two pianos in Piano Phase and has used them in a lot of his music. Philip Glass is notorious for repetitive piano phrases. etc. etc. etc.

Hope this helps somewhat. Let me know what more you would like to know. I have a lot of useful information.

Also, if writing for film, do not for get the Celeste. It often doubles piano in film writing and is very useful on its own.

[Morn 8]

Therefore, it is not appropriate to write music in a pre-classical style on the piano, even though a lot of Baroque keyboard music sounds good on it.

It's perfectly appropriate if you are trying to do something new.

[Elmo Lewis 6]

Morn . . . .if Connor here should want to create new stuff, first he would have to master the old stuff.

Would vote for a president who doesn't know about the history of the country?

[Morn 8]

If he's able to master something, he won't have to master the old stuff first. Just learn about it.

[ocelot 508]

I think Conor is talking about writing for orchestra by sitting on the piano and composing there, rather than with samples in the studio. The old school way. It's the best way as far as I'm concerened and it's a pity it's called the old school way because people nowadays rely too much on the "fake" instrumensts in the studio.

[jsawruk 0]

I use samples etc to compose sketches, but I always rely on live musicians for recording UNLESS I need an electronic instrument. I don't think there is anything wrong necessarily with using samples for sketching, for it is quick and provides not only the composer, but more importantly the director immediate results. This then improves communication between composer and director about each others' vision.

What is problematic, however, is using the samples in the final recording. I find that unacceptable, even though I am an electronic musician myself!

Support the musicians on Broadway!

[Frosty 0]

I will also add that that you should not force yourself to compose the same way someone else composes. Sure Williams composes at the piano because that is his medium, and maybe your as well. But a lot of his composition takes place away from the piano, which could be very helpful as well. Use the piano, but don't use it to influence your ideas initially. Get away from the piano and compose. I'm not talking about perfect pitch or anything like that. Let the ideas flow while you are away from the piano, and then let the piano double check your ideas, and then let it also help you develop ideas. This might sound like I'm contradicting myself. I am not. These ideas are lightyears apart. Do not rely on the piano to give you ideas, it will become a crutch. Let the piano be the tool of gettting your idea out.

This part makes the assumption that you want to use the piano to compose, or the instrument as an integral part.

Rule #1: (not a rule, but a very strenuous suugestion) DO NOT ORCHESTRATE PIANO MUSIC. If you want to make an orchestra sound like a piano, save yourself a lot of time and just write for piano. Learn the instruments, look at scores. You can tell the writers who are writing for the instruments and not translating from the piano. Prokofiev is notorious for the latter. Sure he could orchestrate, but his orchestrations are insanely difficult and counter-intuitive, because he came from a piano version of the score. Although Shostakovich, also very difficult, but easier to assimilate becuase he was writing FOR specific instruments when he was writing it.

Study scores. As many as you can get your hands on.

[jsawruk 0]

Piano transcription is a good way to get started with orchestration (it's what you would do in an undergraduate orchestration course), but the better way is to write individual lines for each instrument specifically. However, this takes lot of time and study. I suggest you start with Adler's Orchestration text. The latest edition is very good, and I highly recommend it.

[Guest]

I use samples etc to compose sketches, but I always rely on live musicians for recording UNLESS I need an electronic instrument. I don't think there is anything wrong necessarily with using samples for sketching, for it is quick and provides not only the composer, but more importantly the director immediate results. This then improves communication between composer and director about each others' vision.

What is problematic, however, is using the samples in the final recording. I find that unacceptable, even though I am an electronic musician myself!

Support the musicians on Broadway!

I agree completely. It's easier to get an idea of how certain timbres match doing it this way. Another technique I use is to type notes directly into Finale. This is as close to writing on manuscript as one can get since it involves a step by step process to build the music. However, I'll usually come up with my main thematic material on the piano and then transcribe it later on for full orchestra. I suspect Williams doesn't need to use samples since he's been involved with real orchestras for so many years that he can imagine almost any combination of instruments accurately. Those of us not so fortunate to have as much exposure to real instruments find it quite beneficial to compose using these techniques.

[ocelot 508]

no no no, you know I use samples for mock ups you silly dodo...... I love being able to have some form of it before the orchestra plays it :roll: 8O

What I meant is that it's always good practice to sit at the piano and compose from there. Then go and make mock ups to hear what it will "sort of" sound like. We are basically saying the same thing.

The problem with not learning the instuments and propper orchestration and solely relying on samples is that a solo flute sounds as loud as 6 horns with the samples. It's a dangerous road to take and rely on without knowing yourself what the instruments are really like.

So when is this concert I am coming to?

[Frosty 0]

The problem with not learning the instuments and propper orchestration and solely relying on samples is that a solo flute sounds as loud as 6 horns with the samples. It's a dangerous road to take and rely on without knowing yourself what the instruments are really like.

I call that MIDI-itis.

Sure you can get things to sound good, but balances and streghths and weaknesses of instruments in that context are not there. You can get a flute that is written in the treble staff (most of the time flutes ae written above the staff) to sound very big. Well, if you know about flutes at all, any note IN the staff is going to be airy and a bit weak, and weaker the lower you go. In a real orchestra, Flutes plaed in the staff are not going to be heard with a lot of other things going on around them. You can put an oboe five lines above the staff and have it play back beautifully through a sampler or synth or whatever. In real life, you are going to have an oboe player give themselves and anneurism and blow out certain parts of their anatomy to even get close to that, and not hit the actual note.

A big inside joke with bassoon players is the opening to the "Rite of Spring". They have made up lyrics to it: "I am not an English Horn" Only very talented players can play the opening effectively.

Avoid MIDI-itis.

Study...listen...write.

[jsawruk 0]

A big inside joke with bassoon players is the opening to the "Rite of Spring". They have made up lyrics to it: "I am not an English Horn" Only very talented players can  play the opening effectively.

Actually, the Rite of Spring passage which you refer to is part of the required repetoire to audition in most symphonies. Any bassoonist with a BM should be able to play that passage, or should look for a new line of work.

Believe it or not, there are real lyrics to the Rite of Spring melody, but I cannot locate them at the moment. The melody is derived from a Lithuanian wedding song.

And while I agree with you that study is important, there is nothing wrong with using MIDI as long as you know what you are doing. Good multisamples help a lot, and you can get huge professional quality sample libraries which give you quite a lot more dynamic range than you think. However, the licensing of these samples means they cost lots of money.

Also, MIDI is good for demonstration purposes, as well as when you really need the synth sound. I'm not talking synthesis of acoustic instruments, but actual synthesis that cannot be achieved otherwise, such as FM synthesis, hetrodyning, convolution, vocoding, FX processing, and granular methods, to name a few.

[Ren 75]

This is a touchy topic for me.

I'll just say that, Conor, try to learn how to hear the music in your head when you are writing. That will help your ear and creativity. Don't rely on computers and do what's best for you. Get a book on orchestration techniques to learn about ranges and doublings that sound neat.

have fun.

[jsawruk 0]

I personally do my best writing when I am away from a piano and a computer, when its just pen and paper away from anything. The theory really takes over then and it's when I write my best melodies.

I write my worst at the piano, because I usually end up playing something already written when I try to compose. But that happens even in my head too. I composed Beethoven and Stravinsky once, but luckily I caught that before I wrote it down.

But that's just my modus operandi. You need to find yours. Find what works for you is more important than what is right or wrong, because there is no right or wrong. Whatever makes you most productive, that's what's right.

Do get the Adler orchestration book... It really is the best out there, especially for a beginner.

[RomanticStrings 10]

Thank you for your help so far. I appreciate it. I got a lot of replies in a fast time.

The way that I have composed in the past is three different ways. First, i only had a keyboard, so I did little, cheesy things on that. Then I got Sibelius (demo), and composed on that. The music was much better. I also tried composing without the piano and just going from head to paper. I found it difficult because I had no clue what it sounded like, but it was better than I thought. Two nights ago, I began to leave a manuscript book next to my bed so at night I could just jot down a few notes. I then go to the piano, try to play it, and go to sleep. I will do that tonight, and the next night. I will just do it until I get something cool, and I will go some more.

Thank you, and feel free to write some more replies.

~Conor

[RomanticStrings 10]

But that's just my modus operandi. You need to find yours. Find what works for you is more important than what is right or wrong, because there is no right or wrong. Whatever makes you most productive, that's what's right.

Do get the Adler orchestration book... It really is the best out there, especially for a beginner.

Actually, hehe, gulp, there is a right and wrong. The version of Sibelius I have right now is not perfectly legal. My friend got it from KaZaa, and sent it to me. That is why I started this thread. I want to get away from that program. I'm saving what I already have as MIDIs, then I plan to get rid of it.

The Adler book? I'll check into it. Thanks.

~Conor

[jsawruk 0]

GIVE UP SIBELIUS??? ARE YOU CRAZY???

But you should seriously buy a copy. You can get it educational price for under $250. Save up and get a legal copy. They are very strict about piracy and I know people within the company.

I know it's a lot, but it is well worth is as anyone who uses Sibelius will tell you

[Morn 8]

Prokofiev is notorious for the latter. Sure he could orchestrate, but his orchestrations are insanely difficult and counter-intuitive

.

I hope you're not saying he's a bad orchestrator because his textures are brilliant. If an orchestra can manage to play his music, I don't see much of a problem. Unless of course if he is not well known and can't get the best orchestra's to perform his work.

[Frosty 0]

Prokofiev is notorious for the latter. Sure he could orchestrate, but his orchestrations are insanely difficult and counter-intuitive

.

I hope you're not saying he's a bad orchestrator because his textures are brilliant. If an orchestra can manage to play his music, I don't see much of a problem. Unless of course if he is not well known and can't get the best orchestra's to perform his work.

No, I love Prokofiev and I love his orchestrations, but they could be more in-line with the technical aspects of the instruments. It wouldn't alter a thing and you might get more successful performances of his stuff. I love the Scithian Suite. He was a bit pissed when he wrote it.

[Frosty 0]

A big inside joke with bassoon players is the opening to the "Rite of Spring". They have made up lyrics to it: "I am not an English Horn" Only very talented players can  play the opening effectively.

Actually, the Rite of Spring passage which you refer to is part of the required repetoire to audition in most symphonies. Any bassoonist with a BM should be able to play that passage, or should look for a new line of work.

Believe it or not, there are real lyrics to the Rite of Spring melody, but I cannot locate them at the moment. The melody is derived from a Lithuanian wedding song.

And while I agree with you that study is important, there is nothing wrong with using MIDI as long as you know what you are doing. Good multisamples help a lot, and you can get huge professional quality sample libraries which give you quite a lot more dynamic range than you think. However, the licensing of these samples means they cost lots of money.

Also, MIDI is good for demonstration purposes, as well as when you really need the synth sound. I'm not talking synthesis of acoustic instruments, but actual synthesis that cannot be achieved otherwise, such as FM synthesis, hetrodyning, convolution, vocoding, FX processing, and granular methods, to name a few.

The person who told me IS a professional bassoonist who has played it many times. That's why I find it funny.

Let me clarify: I use MIDI to help me compose. I don't have any problem with it. I compose most of my stuff away from the keyboard and computer, but then use them to hone my ideas, not give me ideas. What I am saying is do not become accustomed to the sound your MIDI puts out, becuase it will not match the sound of an orchestra, and some of the sounds you are used to hearing might not be the same live. Sure demonstrations and all that are fine, I don't have problem with it. But don't use it as a crutch. Apply it to MIDI, know where it's short coming are. Don't say "It sounded so good on the MIDI, but why doesn't it sound the same with an orchestra?" That has nothing to do with the MIDI or the orchestra, but with the knowledge of the composer and the instruments he uses.

MIDI is good.

MIDI always sounds good and is always in tune. MIDI always has strong players, always has good balances and is never sick, needs substitute players, or rehearsals.

Why doesn't everyone use it for their scores? No emotion, no intuition, no interpretation, and no personal interaction.

MIDI is a tool. Do not become so enraptured with the tool that you forget what you are building.

[Ren 75]

Conor, take a solfege class and it will help you hear things in your head.

[RomanticStrings 10]

Ren, I plan to begin composing lessons with J. Mark Scearce, head of the Composing Department (I think) at USM. I went to see the PSO tonight to see him speak and hear his song Urban Primitive, a very percussive piece. His music sounds very much like a movie score. Anyways, I like his method of composing, where he begins with a melody, and "sweeps over the orchestral canvas," adding layers. He does this off the piano, straight from head to paper, and he composes for each instrument, not figuring out what instrument works with an idea. He also recommended the Adler's Orchestration book.

~Conor

[Morn 8]

It wouldn't alter a thing and you might get more successful performances of his stuff.

That's true.

[Ren 75]

Great Conor.

I'm thinking about beginning my graduate work there at USM, not sure yet. I'm sure most people there (faculty) remember me, but not Mark.

[Guest]

Not to be too reflective, but this is a really good thread. It's nice to hear from a variety of composers their perspective on and methods of composing.

I myself have written music by all methods. I began composing on piano (in university) although that was more to check pitches than anything else, used primative MIDI keyboards to audition some of my ensemble pieces (big difference in timbre), and notation programs like Encore, Finale and Sibelius. All techniques worked well for me.

Ultimately, I believe listening to as much orchestral music as possible and attending concerts is as valuable as studying Adler's or Piston's books. Studying orchestral scores is good too. For those beginning, I'd refer to Beethoven's first few symphonies. Everything is very well laid out and easy to follow. I would definitely NOT recommend Mahler as a starting point since his orchestrations are completely amazing but far from orthodox. I'm still completely awestruck at the detail in texture he achieved in The Song of the Earth. The full score is a dense read but it just makes your jaw drop when you see (and hear) the things he was conjuring up.

[Ren 75]

and you are?

[Guest]

Here's my two cents, Conor.

Keep using Sibelius, buy the full version and learn it inside and out. If you are serious about music you will be at a great advantage if you are familiar with the program as it will be around for a long time, and it's standard software for orchestral score preperation (or Finale, but if you like Sibelius you might as well stick with it)

Get the Adler book, it's the definitive bible of Orchestration. I have read it from cover-to-cover about twenty times and get something new from it every read.

Get a Signature Edition Deluxe Score from Hal Leonard, something like Summon the Heroes or Hymn to the Fallen. Listen to the recording and follow each instrument part through to the end, one at a time. Then follow the winds as a group, the brass as a group, the strings, and so on, until you know the entire score almost by rote. When you know all the notes, focus on all the markings, dynamics, phrasing etc. You will find your knowledge of orchestration will increase dramatically during this process.

Learn how to use sample libraries. I'm sure if JW was younger and worked with computers, he would be using samples as part of his composing, but he has a profound knowledge of the orchestra so it's not neccessary. But, you can learn quite a bit about orchestration through playing with sample librarys. The more you know about Orchestration the better your sample versions will be.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

You know alot of composers release piano performances of their themes performed by the composers themselves. It would be nice to see John try something like this.

So long as it did not come off too John Tesch like ....

[Guest]

and you are?

Just a regular guy who composes orchestral music.