David Coscina 3 Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 I was watching E.T. the other night and it occured to me that, without Williams' music, Spielberg's entire opus would not be quite as impressive. Now don't get me wrong, Steven Spielberg is one of our great directors, a great storyteller and an imaginative visualist. I just noted that with his films up to lets say prior to Schindler's List, his reliance on Williams' music is paramount to the over all effectiveness of the movie. I mean, turn down the volume for the last 10 minutes of E.T. and it's no where near as moving. I was never really a huge fan of the score although I always had respect for it, but with my recent viewing, I was bowled over by the virtuosic writing by Williams for the film. It's sad how that kind of writing is not prevelant in today's films. directors hardly offer that kind of freedom and room for a composer to extend themselves- even Spielberg.JAWS, RAIDERS, even parts of EMPIRE OF THE SUN, HOOK, JURASSIC PARK, all of those pictures so clearly rely on a strong musical score to propell them past above average to extraordinary (well, maybe not HOOK). CLOSE ENCOUNTERS is one of Spielberg's few films where there's almost a documentary-like tone to the first act, where the music functions almost as diagetic sound rather than typical underscore. Yet, the final act veers back into Spielberg sentimentality and Williams' gorgeous music. I'm not knocking either composer or director for their styles. In fact, it occured to me that E.T. is so magical because it is unabashedly sentimental. In today's tense political and social climate, it would be nice to have a few more of these well-crafted films around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trumpeteer 302 Posted May 12, 2003 Share Posted May 12, 2003 You're preaching to the choir, buddy.Jeff -- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Yes he is preaching to the choir, but it's always nice to hear such a post every once ina while. Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Spielberg has even conceded the value of JW, saying something to the affect that JW makes him look good each time out.I think movies like ET, Jaws, Indiana Jones triology, etc. are great movies but movies that need good scores to be successful. I don't think its simply luck that JW has been associated with more money making movies than anybody - composer, director, actor or otherwise.- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
UCFKevin 0 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Yeah, Spielberg's admitted that without Johnny, his films wouldn't work that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Spielberg is a great director, plain and simple. I wouldn't go so far as to say that Williams is his "savior," but Spielberg is one of the few directors who recognizes the importance of music in films and in the filmmaking process. He knows that Williams is not only an outstanding musician but knows how to use music within the context of a story by knowing what each particular story need. Spielberg and Williams are mutually benefical from one another, that's how I see it.Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Give Steven credit for knowing the film music needs of his film, and choosing John Williams. Williams isn't a savior as much as he is a collaborator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 Give Steven credit for knowing the film music needs of his film, and choosing John Williams. Williams isn't a savior as much as he is a collaborator.Exactly. That's basically what I was saying in my above post, except you did it more concisely.Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted May 13, 2003 Share Posted May 13, 2003 I don't think its simply luck that JW has been associated with more money making movies than anybody - composer, director, actor or otherwise. Ohh I think there are other great composers that would still make those movies very successful, still if Williams wasn't so good he wouldn't have got the movies and if Williams didn't have the movies they wouldn't quite be the same or maybe quite as good. Anyway, I'd say that Spielberg knows that music is essential and knows how to get good music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lacxox 0 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 I know it's not Spielberg but Lucas - but I guess everyone knows the story when Lucas showed SW first to studio execs and they felt this will be a bomb but later JW's music was added and the miracle happened... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted May 15, 2003 Share Posted May 15, 2003 Studio exec's.... don't reflect the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I've said it a million times, and so did my mom recently. Think of how silly and stupid E.T. would be without that score? It would be so foolish that the only reason why anybody would remember it would be to laugh at it! LOLGood film or bad, Williams raises ANY film that he scores at least a notch, and sometimes even two or three. E.T. is one of those films that would be nonsense without the score, a masterpiece with. Most of the Star Wars films as well. There likely would have never been TESB let alone a whole saga if it wasn't for Williams's music giving a spirit to the film.Just try watching any of them with the mute botton on and close captions. Some of those movies would be pretty bad without the music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 I completely disagree, E.T. is a great film made all the more greater because of the score. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adam 1 Posted May 28, 2003 Share Posted May 28, 2003 The way I look at it is that ET was a great film in many ways but definitely a film that needed music. And there are scenes that would risk being completely corny or silly without an effective underscore. Kids flying through the air on bicycles is one example of that.Spielberg deserves credit for having the confidence to make a movie that other directors might have felt to be too "empty". A lesser director might have added explosions and such to pump up the action sequences. Williams provides the action scenes with the kinetic and emotional energy to make them so compelling. So I don't think that its necessarioly a contradiction to say that ET was a great movie (well directed, acted, etc.) but made in such a way that music was very necessary (much more than most films) to complete the experience. The accumulated effect of having music doing the right thing, scene after scene, for the entire course of the movie and that to have that ambitious last 20 minutes where the music becomes sort of transcendent, sweeping us away... Its hard to underestimate how important that was to the experience.- Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
David Coscina 3 Posted May 29, 2003 Author Share Posted May 29, 2003 I never meant to slight Spielberg with my posting heading. I really meant to garner some discussion as to how effective Williams' music is in a film. yes, most of us on this board agree with that wholeheartedly. It's quite disconcerting that others out there make statements like "he ought to retire, his music is noisy" (this is a real slap in the face considering that author of this assertion praises Zimmer's music- how ironic).In pure music terms, Williams has always been in the upper ranks of composers, and not just film composers. I do believe that history will see him as one of our great late 20th century composers, in line with the likes of Stravinsky, Berg, Mahler, Cage, Penderecki, Copland, Adams, Glass, etc. etc. But that's just my humble opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 So I don't think that its necessarioly a contradiction to say that ET was a great movie (well directed, acted, etc.) but made in such a way that music was very necessary (much more than most films) to complete the experience. That's a great way of putting it. To me it seems very awkward to imagine the flying scene(s) with no music, and not just because of Williams' awesome theme. The presence of music there is vital to make us believe the unbelievable and become totally enveloped in the magic of the film.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 It's absurd to say that ET without the music would not be a great film, the score perhaps makes it a masterpiece? The film does have a well written script and good acting of which the music can't affect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luke Skywalker 1,795 Posted May 29, 2003 Share Posted May 29, 2003 I think it is not just Williams. Scores are major characters in movies (well at least in most of them) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ray Barnsbury 8 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 It's absurd to say that ET without the music would not be a great film, the score perhaps makes it a masterpiece? The film does have a well written script and good acting of which the music can't affect.Yes. I agree, and I hope you didn't think I was implying that a scoreless E.T. would be less than wonderful.Ray Barnsbury Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hardtolee420 0 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 The way I see it, you can relate a movie like ET to a ballet - only without the dancing. Take The Nutcracker, for example. It is a brilliant performance. It has a wonderful story, good dancing, and a beautiful score by Tchaikovsky. If the Nutcracker had stood alone without the music, it would have been a huge disaster. No one would see it. If the original creaters of the show had decided to make it without music, it would have been made very differently. So the creaters of the Nutcracker are in no way bad story tellers or choreographers, but simply good colaborators with Tchaikovsky.Similarly, If Speilburg had intended to make ET without Williams, he would have made it completely different. Therefore, Speilburg (who IMO is the best director alive today) is in no way a bad director, he simply made a "ballet," intending for there to be powerful music playing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tpigeon 3 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 E.T. is a great film; it is not made by the score, but rather enhanced by it. So I agree with Joe, Ray, and Luke, as well as the others who have made similar comments. I love everything about the film, E.T. Obvioussly the score has a lot to do with it, but so does the acting, the directing and every other aspect that went into this film. It's that unique combination that made the film what it is. I think that the score is one of the greatest of all time and is an all time favorite of mine, but it's not the sole reason why the film is the classic that it is. the reasons for that are many.Ted Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 One of Spielberg's finest qualities as a director is that he can put his ego aside. Someone as Williams can change a movie's overall feel just by having a different perspective of the story. A bit of Spielberg's magic can be explained in that he allows for such a thing to happen. And so Williams changed the feel of "Jaws"(made it more adverturous)and Steven let him. Not many other egos will tolerate this.E.T. , from the start, was blessed with all the right elements in order to become a movie classic beginning with script and ending with editing and score. Spielberg, as most of you know, reedited the movie's Grand Finale to match the sublime music Williams wrote for it. Believe me, every composer wants to work with Steven.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 Savior is kind of pushing it.Although it is obvious that much of the magic of Spielberg's film comes just as much from John's creatvity as it does Steven's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted May 30, 2003 Share Posted May 30, 2003 And I do mean every composer!!!----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 E.T. would had been the most foolish movies ever without John's score making the interactions between the kids and E.T. touching, and even more importantly... those flying scenes... PEOPLE WOULD HAVE RAN OUT OF THE THEATRES LAUGHING IF IT WASN'T FOR THAT MUSIC! LOLWilliams music MAKES E.T. a masterpiece. Without it, the movie would have been forgotten by the vast majority of the public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoeinAR 1,949 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Chris you are so full of shit, its unbelievable, and you know it.E.T. has great direction,great writing,great editing,great actinggreat cinematographygreat special effectsgreat sound effectsThose alone make it a great filmJohn's music is also great, but it alone doesn't make E.T. the masterpiece it is, rather it is the sum of all its parts. Indeed, E.T. is greater than the sum of all its parts.If what you say is true, which it isn't, then how do you explain the FACT that during the filming of Elliot's eulogy[sp?], there was not a dry eye in the house. How could that possible happen without John's music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Joe... That's a personal attack! 8O :cry: Come on Joe... really... think about those scenes? Hit the mute button... come on! Note that opinions about artistic things such as movies are subjective. Good acting, sound effects, lighting, directing... all fine and dandy. Take one element away... the music... and it would be 10% of the movie that it was WITh the music.In fact, the HORRIFIC edit job in the "takeoff" in the Special Edition even ruined the effect for me. Even editing the music wrong was a bad idea.-Chris, Who loves that movie and score... but come on people... E.T. without the music? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Note that opinions about artistic things such as movies are subjective.Aren't all opinions subjective?Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Note that opinions about artistic things such as movies are subjective.Aren't all opinions subjective?NeilOf course, all opinions are pretty much meaningless other than to just socialize. However, some opinions can be proven factually correct or highly truthful. Not with art though. One could say someone has better taste than others on a somewhat "snotty" level... but you can't really say "absolutely for certain", like you can with other things that CAN be proven right or wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 In fact, the HORRIFIC edit job in the "takeoff" in the Special Edition even ruined the effect for me. Even editing the music wrong was a bad idea. Oh yeah, when I talk of "E.T.", I mean the unaltered one. I had to buy the more expensive box in order to have the original theatrical release which doesn't come solo. Thanks Steven! Did you have some advice from a certain "George" lately on how to fill your pockets twice with the same product? Next time, give us a choice!But in Steven's defence: What's good music without the brilliant performance of the kids of E.T. ? And the list of brilliancy goes on.--------------- Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 E.T. has only ONE THING that is great IMO.That is music. The rest is "meh". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 That's because you betray your true feelings, Rogue Leader. Search, look deeper and then, give in and admit. It's a relieving experience.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Sorry, but IMO E.T. is a mediocre film. Sure I may seem cynical saying that but the film does nothing for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Next time see it again on Christmas.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurker 5 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 I had to buy the more expensive box in order to have the original theatrical release which doesn't come solo. Thanks Steven! Did you have some advice from a certain "George" lately on how to fill your pockets twice with the same product? Next time, give us a choice!He did. The inexpensive 2 disc version of E.T. also came with the original cut. This was a last minute addition to that set and I don't think even the paperwork on the set indicated that. Also, the 2 disc version has a DTS track on the 1982 version while the 3 disc box set does not.Neil Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Yes, the 2-disc Collectors Edition has the original stored on disc 2 but that's Region 1. The normal 2-disc (Region 2) version has only the changed version. The 3-disc (Region 2) set has them both. As far as I know there are no plans for releasing the Collectors Ediotion on the Region Two market. EditBoth Region 2 releases have DTS.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ymenard 54 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Rogue how can you say E.T. doesn't have great cinematography, or editing???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Williams is a bright young man and is fully entitled to his own opinion.Our differences is what makes this such a great place to be.Stefancos- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Williams is a bright young man and is fully entitled to his own opinion. :? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 1, 2003 Share Posted June 1, 2003 Fiery Angel wrote:It's sad how that kind of writing is not prevelant in today's films. directors hardly offer that kind of freedom and room for a composer to extend themselves- even Spielberg. Music is only one of the many facets that are looked upon differently today. Everything sounds familiar and safe. Producers sleep better that way.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Williams is a bright young man and is fully entitled to his own opinion.Our differences is what makes this such a great place to be.Stefancos- I hate when people say that. Like we were given deeds to speak our opinion? That's just a politically correct way of saying that you disagree entirely.Politically correct until you puked that is. LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I'll say it again. The difference between E.T. being a **/**** film and a ****/**** film.. is the music. Edit, act, and direct it to perfection all you want... for me (and I'm sure many people agree) the music puts all the emotion into it. Puts that extra *umph* that turns a somewhat foolish movie into a great one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 the music puts all the emotion into it. Puts that extra *umph* that turns a somewhat foolish movie into a great one. Wow, you'll have to back that one up with an example. 8O 8O 8O ----------------Alex CremersPS edit "Grease" perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I am fully aware that my opinion is NOT EXACTLY a popular one on this board. Sorry, not trying to offend anyone. Just stating my opinion is all. Hey, if you guys think the movie is great good for you. I don't go in for Spielberg's over-blown emotion like that seen in E.T. and the other two letter movie A.I.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rogue_Leader 2 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 Williams is a bright young man and is fully entitled to his own opinion.Our differences is what makes this such a great place to be.Stefancos- I hate when people say that. Like we were given deeds to speak our opinion? That's just a politically correct way of saying that you disagree entirely.Politically correct until you puked that is. LOLYes that is a PC way of saying it, but his poihnt is still correct. The differences in opinion on this board are what add to it. Oh and I must agree the puke face was just delightful! What a sweet for Stefan to let us all know he thinks my opinion sucks. Never change dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris ChrusherComix 46 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 One could ridiculed and possibly beat up if you say you like E.T. in some parts of the world. LOLStill, it reminds me in the mid-to-late 90's when grunge rock was big and my friend put me on the phone with some chick that thought that the Star Wars movies would rule if they had grunge music in them. Where is grunge now? :roll:-Chris, Who has been on a bit of a posting spree since that AOTC 2 CD set news came about. It's been fairly dead on the Williams-news front for a few months now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Morn 8 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 E.T. has great direction, great writing, great editing, great acting great cinematography great special effects great sound effects Those alone make it a great film John's music is also great, but it alone doesn't make E.T. the masterpiece it is, rather it is the sum of all its parts. Indeed, E.T. is greater than the sum of all its parts. The score is more than most of those you list, I think only great writing, great editing (maybe) and great acting match the importance of the score.Indeed, E.T. is greater than the sum of all its parts. I dunno, it depends on how you define sum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caldeira 0 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 I must say that I mostly agree with the topic title (ok, savior is a bit strong ). Of course Steven Spielberg is one of the greatest directors alive... he is certainly the most popular one. But just think about this:His first blockbuster was Jaws. THAT movie was the first turn point in his career. Now, imagine the film without the music and, especially, without the shark motif. Would it be as efective and successful? I don't think so, it would have to be, at least, edited differently, it would be a different movie. Could any other composer write such a threatning theme? I guess so, but it wouldn't be the same. I think Jaws it's one of those rare examples where music and picture combine perfectly. Without Williams music, Steven's career wouldn't have had that ignition. But, let's admit that his career would progress the same way as it did after Jaws. His next project was Close Encounters of the Third Kind and we all know that Williams got involved with it since it's earlier stages. So, Williams music was one of Spielberg's sources of inspiration for the film, playing, as we all know, a vital part in it. It's not illogical to admit that, without that particular music, Close Encounters would be slightly (to say the least) different. Would it be such an incredible movie? Probably not.The next Spielberg's blockbuster was Indiana Jones and The Raiders Of The Lost Ark ( ), making him even more successful. Williams music for that film has, probably, the most well known movie theme ever (well, at least that is my perception in my country). It's a wounderfull, billiantly directed movie, but would it be as engaging and heroic if it weren't for Williams music? Probably not.Then came E.T., and what can I say that hasn't been said? Only that I completely agree with Chris. E.T wouldn't work for me without the music, especially without Williams greatly inspired themes. And this was THE movie that made Spielberg a world wide phenomenon. Joe said "E.T. is greater than the sum of all its parts" and that's true, but isn't it true that if you subtract one of the parts it will afect the sum?After E.T., Spielberg has proven, time and time again, what a brilliant director he is, but I believe that every person's history his made of evolution and not of single moments. Having said that, Williams made a major difference in Steven's earlier point of his career, without whom he wouldn't be where he is today (this works the other way around too). Remember that Spielberg once said that "John has never failed to suprise me, uplift me or make me look good " and I think he really meant it.Mind you that this is just my opinion, no one has to be offended by it. Ah, and please avoid the "sh*t" thing... Miguel Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A24 4,345 Posted June 2, 2003 Share Posted June 2, 2003 For everyone who thinks Williams is the saviour.It's a good thing they ran into each other at an early stage of their careers. Steven made some great movies and John made some also great accompanied scores. But stop with the saviour nonsense, as if Spielberg is less brilliant without him. Not in my book he isn't. The fact that Spielberg acknowledged the talents of a non-hot shot composer who just ditched his former name Johnny and nourished him by allowing almost total freedom is a brilliant act on its own. Steven was already something special before Williams came into the picture. Remember "Duel"? That was the talk of town for weeks and it was just a TV-movie with no budget. Another fine example that shows Steven can pull it of without the genius of Williams is "The Color of Purple" which is, IMO, a better attempt to great movie making then, for instance, "A.I." with its truly over-blown emotional ending (E.T. is not, Rogue Leader, big difference there).When Spielberg goes over the top and makes "Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom" or "1941" the music, even though it's Williams during his Golden Years, cannot save the day. When was Williams the saviour when Spielberg made "Always"? That's one movie I wanna forget. It doesn't have to be music and nothing else but the music. Notice when seeing "Schindler's List" how sparse the music is. The main theme isn't that typical Williams either. Did you feel that it, perhaps, needed a bit more of his masters touch to make the film better? There isn't a doubt in my mind that Steven can make a great movie without a single note of music (the first 25 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" is a perfect example).What it comes down to is that, indeed, film is the sum of all parts and every part needs to be brilliant. That's why there aren't so many good ones around.If you have a brilliant film, then add some brilliant music. If you don't have any, then add nothing. You are still left with a brilliant film.----------------Alex Cremers Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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