Who's got the best technique?

[Guest]

To me, I think Williams and Horner know how to score a film the best. When I pick up a CD of theirs and commit it to memory before I see the film it's from, I'm less disappointed with the scene my favorite parts wind up scoring. Jerry, on the other hand, I can't say the same for. I'm usually disappointed. Seeing Looney Tunes and Enemy at the Gates and the first few minutes of Dracula have got me thinking about this. I knew Looney Tunes note-by-note before I saw it, but I wound up being disappointed when a lot of my favorite parts were used for mediocre stuff going on in the movie. However, in Enemy at the Gates, all my favorite parts were enhanced by the images they were intended for. Same go for the opening credits of Dracula. The Patriot comes to mind, too. When I first saw the movie after having the score for a while, I totally fell in love with the first few seconds of "Family Farm", when it showed the hatchet being put away in the chest. When you've got that cranked up on 5.1, you can't tell me you don't like that, even if you hate the movie and score.

Even though I say like the way Williams and Horner score a movie better, I enjoy listening to Jerry's scores aside from the movie just as much as theirs.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Best Technique?

No question Williams and Goldsmith!!!!

They are in a class which is far beyond nearly all the other composers out there in this category.

[Guest]

Are you saying those two guys because you hate Horner or should I know better than to ask you about anything regarding to taste? (You never seem to have very many people agreeing with you at any one time.)

[Rogue_Leader 2]

First I don't HATE Horner. I merely find his working of the past decade to be fairly lacking. His early work was great stuff.

2nd my personal dislike of Horner's more recent works HAS NOTHING to do with my choices. I picked Williams because his materful use of theme in the lietmotif style has proven his technique to be impeccable. I chose Goldsmith because while he doesn't have as great a command of theme as Williams does he has great orchestration skills and has created a great canon of work in a wild variety of musical styles.

In choosing just those two remember I left out alot of other film composers whom I also like alot.

IMO they are the only two composers just such an adept understanding of film music technique. At least the only two alive anyway.

[Lurker 5]

Bernard Herrmann always knew how to add to a movie.

Neil

[Morlock 11]

I agree with Randy Newman. Williams has the most technique. Although Horner sometimes seems to be all technique.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

I don't have this knowledge to descry whose technique is "the best", but John Barry should be mentioned here for I think he'd done a great work having utilized one of the simplest scoring techniques I know of, which usually would be strings in unison performing a swell theme decently backed by the rest of the ensemble. I'm not implying any irony here; I really think it takes a handful of craftsmanship to do it and rivet.

I think John Williams is the exact opposite of this. Even his smallest themes and motifs are always so developed that you can listen to them over and over and even after decades you still think they sound fresh. At least this is how most of his works work with me.

Personally I think his well-developed technique is best displayed in his concert works.

And, in my humble opinion, Williams has the knack for writing for brass and wind instruments above all else, possibly the best technique to find with a film composer of the many past years.

Roman.-)

[Guest]

We're not talking about composing techniques, YL. We're talking about how well these guys write music that's enhanced by the images they're intended for, rather than be weighed down by them.

[Trumpeteer 302]

Hey Lord, I've got a suggestion for you: Try watching the film and listening to the score there before you commit it to memory on the CD.

The reason I say this is because often you will encounter a piece of music in a mediocre scene. Your hopes are dashed because the music was put in a crappy scene. Often when I see a film and encounter a mediocre scene (such as Padme's love proclamation before entering the arena in "AOTC") and then hear the great music that goes with it, I have a better apreciation for the scene.

If I'm expecting good music to mean a good scene, then I'm bound to be disappointed way too often. If I'm experiencing visuals and music for the first time together, my expectations depend on the combination of the two. Then, when (or if) I purchase the CD, the appreciation of the score is higher.

Jeff

[Guest]

I think I did that with Nemesis and I wound up really liking the score. I saw it on Christmas Eve last year and got the CD the next morning (under the tree) and I listened to the CD a lot and when I saw the movie again, I was disappointed to see what the music had gone with. For instance, 0:27 of "The Scorpion" and 1:44 to 2:04 of "Final Flight". I thought Scorpion would be the part when Data and Picard shoot their way out of the bay, but it just scores when the thing starts up. And in Final Flight, I thought that part scored the scene when the Enterprise rams the Scimitar. After all, it sounds like "Battle for Peace" in Star Trek VI.

I do think that The 13th Warrior actually was a film that enhanced the score. I didn't listen to it much before I saw it, but I've been listening to it quite a bit since then. I especially like "Mother Wendol's Cave", "Swing Across", and "Fire Dragon" after that. And "Eaters of the Dead" seemed to enhance the track, because the music seemed to fit with Zorro seeing the heads and what-not on the floor in the hut.

[King Mark 3,631]

Often when I see a film and encounter a mediocre scene (such as Padme's love proclamation before entering the arena in "AOTC") and then hear the great music that goes with it, I have a better apreciation for the scene.

Jeff

Did it work for Talk of Podracing in TPM?

K.M.

[Trumpeteer 302]

Nah, it worked for "Escape from Naboo" though.

[hitman20 0]

Williams is a given, but I also wanna add Elfman in a few of his earlier films (Edward Scissorhands, Peewee Herman) Silvestri (Forrest Gump and parts of Back to the Future) James Newton Howard (Signs) Howard Shore (The Two Towers) and Don Davis (The Matrix Trilogy).

Don Davis is developing better techinque with each film he does. The opening for the Matrix is one of the best openings for a film so far. I mean his "rotating horn" motif brings you in to the movie and it complements the logos in a pleasant interaction between the two. Neodammerung is one of the sole reasons to own his Revolutions score, and IMHO, is the best score of 2003.

Howard Shore is really starting to devlop himself as a better composer and it's evident in the Two Towers score. With that score I feel he really developed his themes and motifs, and the first five minutes of the film bring instant excitement as his music along with the visual effects create an action intensive scene. I love it!

[HPFAN_2 0]

Thomas Newman.

[Ren 75]

I took one look at this thread and thought it might have been about something else. THen I saw Stefan didn't start it.

[Simon R. 10]

Compositional technique? That's Williams.

[PBL 0]

I took one look at this thread and thought it might have been about something else.  THen I saw Stefan didn't start it.

Hehe... I was waiting for someone to point out that....

IMO, technic in film scoring means so much particuliar things: orchestration color, opacity, dynamics, tempo and rythm but especially transitions and natural continuity of the music (or a voluntary stop or fermata).

I have one example in mind: in the Return of the King, there is one transition that is so bad, it made me nearly jump out of my seat (a landscape with light wide music, then suddendly coming out of nowhere, a scene the Castle, with a kind of "cheap twisted" music... argh I hate those moments.

Well, Williams is a pro for these kind of scene. Goldsmith perfectely reacts to the movement of the camera, the way the actors move, their different moods...

Herrmann was a great "catch the movie in one musical flick" composer.

[Guest]

Horner, I think, has lousy scoring technique, although his music is good. He has a tendency to telegraph what is about to happen, and uses drawn out leanings (cadences) in his transitions between crucial cuts.

It's very apparent in scores like Glory and Field of Dreams.

On the other hand Williams is very precise in that regard. And Goldsmith.

[Morlock 11]

I actualy think it's sort of the opposite- he knows what people like to hear, he know what makes a score popular, he knows how to make it work. That's why he hasn't come up with any new thematic material in the past decade, he know that what he does works, and he sees no reason to meddle with a working formula. Most of his scores are at least servicable, and IMO a few like A Beautiful Mind are really good, despite being entirely lacking originality.

I think he's all technique.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Thomas Newman.

Your picking Thomas Newman as the best? REALLY? Even over williams?

Care to comment on why you made this choice?

[Adam 1]

When it comes to the technique of writing music to fit the scene - this is one of the areas where JW really separates himself from others, I think. There's a degree of precision and attention to detail that is unparalleled. He somehow seems to be able to capture the right mood and setting with the appropriate emphasis. And in his action scores, in particular, its a delight to see him keep tempo with the scene all the while highlighting the developments on screen both big and small.

There's numerous examples, but take just one : In Home Alone when Kevin is preparing to do battle with the thiefs (Setting the Trap I think). It has a fugue like theme with Christmasy atmosphere that appropriatly hypes the encounter. And all the while the music is going full-speed and still capturing all the little details like the Christmas lights coming on at people's houses. That's one of the reasons its so fun to hear his music with the movie, I think.

- Adam

[Guest]

There's no stopping the man when he's In the Zone... and when isn't he?

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

There's numerous examples, but take just one : In Home Alone when Kevin is preparing to do battle with the thiefs (Setting the Trap I think). It has a fugue like theme with Christmasy atmosphere that appropriatly hypes the encounter. And all the while the music is going full-speed and still capturing all the little details like the Christmas lights coming on at people's houses. That's one of the reasons its so fun to hear his music with the movie, I think.

Great example, I love that score/film combination. Also in Home Alone is a wonderful moment when Kevin is running from the thieves and hides in the church's nativity scene. I love the Star of Bethlehem outburst as the church is shown. It's another very effective instance of Williams' scoring, this time where he elevates the scene to a level above what it otherwise would be.

Ray Barnsbury

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Another composer who has great technique is Basil Poledouris.

Sadly he only displays it in a handful of his works.

[Morn 8]

Goldsmith, Herrmann and North, they tend to capture the subtle aspects of characters and the core of the film extremely well. And North doesn't score the emotions of the film but of the character which is much more effective in any movie that makes use of it's characters, it's like being an empath. And he is as epic and leitmotif based as Williams unlike Goldsmith and Herrmann, which is a good thing, gives association with parts of the film and connects the score well.

Horner I think doesn't score movies very intelligently, but his music is perfect at giving an emotional lift to the movie, it's often all placed perfectly with the right climaxes. However, he tends to over score (deliberately actually, he once said something like I thought the film was crappy so I tried to boost it with overscoring, about perfect storm) or choose a mis fitting style too often.

Williams scores stuff rather typically, it terms mainly of the emotions of the plot or the scene. However, he has a gift for very subtlely expressing aspects of the film with things like orchestration, like say the witchcraft music in Potter. With a nice leitmotif score that perferctly adds emotion to the movie and can take control of the movie.

I don't have this knowledge to descry whose technique is "the best", but John Barry should be mentioned here for I think he'd done a great work having utilized one of the simplest scoring techniques I know of, which usually would be strings in unison performing a swell theme decently backed by the rest of the ensemble. I'm not implying any irony here; I really think it takes a handful of craftsmanship to do it and rivet.

Argh, all his same sounding stringy harmony stuff, sometimes it all merges together and doesn't support the film well.

[Rogue_Leader 2]

Lets not forget Miklos Rosza. That guy had some of the most superior technique ever displayed by a composer.

[Morn 8]

Maybe, I think he tends to overscore a bit too much. Morricone tends to score things originally often with a cool slow dramatic punch that builds up through out the whole score.

[Yoda Longbottom 0]

Argh, all his same sounding stringy harmony stuff, sometimes it all merges together and doesn't support the film well.

My favorite Barry is the Bond, but "Lion in Winter" is no way a trashy stuff and his contemporary "stringy" stuff may be too boring, but without these, Legends of the Fall would have been another typical Horner and Lord of the Rings wouldn't be my favorite for its "Breaking of the Fellowship" stringy éclat.

My friend calls recent Barry's stuck-in-a-rut writing a "music for mindless females", but he's hardly familiar with much more scores than "Enigma" and "Scarlet Letter", that I admit are both too drab.

Who ever wrote "Gone With the Wind", this man knew how to score a movie.

[Morn 8]

Err, Max Steiner?

[A24 4,353]

Lets not forget Miklos Rosza. That guy had some of the most superior technique ever displayed by a composer.

Talking about technique! I've bought his Violin Concerto/Cello Concerto (Telarc) and the Violin Concerto is really super. The sound quality is to die for.

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Alex Cremers