Music makes the movie

[Figo 2]

As film music lovers, you're all familiar with that look that comes when someone asks how you liked a particular movie, and one of your first comments is about the score. Ordinary people are not like you and me. Most of them don't know James Horner from James Newton Howard.

However, every once in a while a score comes along that sticks in the public consciousness -- "Star Wars" being one of the best examples -- and for a time everyone is buying soundtrack albums. Then the excitement dies down, and it's back to those "music inspired by" pop anthologies.

I believe it was Roald who compiled a list of most famous film themes of all time. It was a good list. In the past day or so, I've been thinking about the role of music in film, and for some reason I've been fixating on "The Magnificent Seven."

"The Magnificent Seven" is one of those rare classics that is actually "made" by the music. Without Elmer Bernstein's score and an amazing cast, the film would come off as just another Western. As a matter of fact, the amazing cast is mostly wasted. Eli Wallach gets to chew some scenery, and Yul Brynner does his best Yul Brynner, but other than that, James Coburn, Charles Bronson, and Robert Vaughn -- a few nightsweats aside -- are basically gone before we know them. That means Bernstein's score virtually singlehandedly endows the film with its classic status. Take away the music, and it sinks like a stone. Perhaps if it had been three hours long, more could have been done with the characters. It truly COULD have been an American "Seven Samurai." But it wasn't.

I thought we could do thread about films that were similarly "made" by their composers. I'm not talking about great films, like "Psycho," "Jaws," or "E.T." that were made transcendent by their respective scores. I'm talking about so-so pictures that probably would have been forgotten if not for their composers' contributions. For instance, I know Stefancos' thinks a lot of "The Omen," actually ranking it somewhere above "The Exorcist" (an opinion I do not happen to share). In fact, I think without Goldsmith's memorable music, "The Omen" would have been seen by everyone for the exploitative trash it actually was. As it stands, we still talk about it whenever we discuss horror movies a quarter of a century later.

So, how about it? What movies can you think of that were actually elevated beyond mediocrity by an outstanding musical score?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

So, how about it?  What movies can you think of that were actually elevated beyond mediocrity by an outstanding musical score?

It is more than just film that are mediocre being elevated. Good films can become great films because of the score, Jaws, and Star Wars being already mentioned.

Another western comes to mind, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly. It has a memorable score, one of the true greats, but the film itself is made better because of it. It is a good film, but with out the score it is just another spagetti western, nothing more than a grade b film.

As you mentioned Horror films sometimes stand out. As good as the Exorcist is, its lack of a full score is an oddity. Would it have been better with a complete filmscore. Carrie and Dressed to Kill are two films that are much better because DePalma got the right score out of Pino Donaggio. Halloween is much better because John Carpenter was able to create the perfect score for the film. The same could be said about Friday the 13th. Harry Manfredini also came up with just the right sound.

Creature from the Black Lagoon succeeds better because of the colaborative effort from several composers including Henry Mancini.

Alot of genre films are better as well, Star Trek the Motion Picture is still a weak film on many levels, but Goldsmith score elevates it so much. I would go so far as to say Goldsmith score helps STTMP moreso than JW's score for Star Wars(SW was both story and character driven, STTMP was only character driven, and not well at that). Many of the 50's scifi and horror films all rise beyond their level.

Then there are the films that need the music as much as the music need the film. Not all of these films are musicals. Can anyone imagine Close Encounters without the music. Indeed with came first Close Encounters the music, or Close Encounters the film. The chicken or the egg.

Why is Wizard of Oz a classic because of the songs. It may have won the Best Score in 1939 over Steiner's classic GWTW score. Did it deserve to win, no, did it deserve to lose, no. They both make their respective film better in different ways, but the both make their films better, bottom line.

Sometimes we forget that the filmscore is part of the process. It can be seperated and taken for what it is, but it is part of the film experience. Alot of new filmmakers experiment with songtracks, or in the case of A Knight's Tale, use anachrinistic songs for a film based in a different time. Oftentimes it might work, in the case of the Knight's film it is disasterous.

Joe

[Morlock 11]

I don't fully understand what you mean, but I'll give it a go.

I believe 'Psyco', 'Jaws' and 'Star Wars' amount to nothing without the music. I really mean that. Absolutly nothing.

'The Big country' is a great example. Without Jerome Moross' score, the movie really couldn't pass the message.

'Zorba The greek'. This is a movie that is undoable without Mikis Theodorakis' great score.

'The Reivers' is an example of a movie that should have been elevated by it's great John Williams' score, but wasn't really.

I believe the score for 'The Rock' is extriemely under apritiated. IMO it's not just an example of the perfect score, but also the movie wouldn't have a base. It's one of my favorite movies just for the wonderful score. IMO it's also the best action score there is.

This is one that only partialy counts, but still-

The theme for 'Mission Impossible' you say those words, immidiatly you think of the amazing theme, which, IMO, was a major factor in the shows longevety.

The last one I can think of right now is Ennio Moricone's classic score for 'The good, The bad and the ugly'. I dare you to imagine how horrific

that would be!

[AHerrera83 0]

Two other films that depend heavily on the music are HOOSIERS and RUDY, both by Jerry Goldsmith and both sports classics.

Music in sports films has the opportunity of being showcased, because it's a very effective way of summarizing entire sports events, or even seasons, while at the same time communicating the specific feelings that you want associated to them. Just try to imagine all the football practices from RUDY without Goldsmith's sweeping melody!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I have to disagree with you Morlock,

Jaws, Psycho, and Star Wars would all be good films, but not nothing without their respective scores.

As I said, Star Wars is a very story and character driven film. With out JW's score those elements remain. JW's music enhances this otherworldy film experience and makes it truely great.

Jaws is also story and character driven, but since it is a film based in reality, the music serves to provide tension, and exhilaration, and it does so to a degree that few film scores do. In both SW and Jaws the score "IS" another character

Psycho's music works to affect the filmgoer. It is more effective as a shock element. Rather than being another character in this film it is the occasional ghoest that sticks its head out and goes boo. Or in this case shreeks.

Joe, who wishes more would reply to this challanging topic.

[Harry Potter 0]

What about the score for E.T.? I think that score provides a huge amount of spirit for the movie.

~Harry

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Tell us why you say that, or feel that Harry. Give us your insight.

[Figo 2]

I thought I was very clear (although perhaps a bit prolix) about what I was asking for. Of course, great music can elevate an already great film. And saying "Psycho," "Jaws," and "Star Wars" would be nothing without the music is a little bit of an overstatement. All three of these films are extremely well made, and still would have been so if they had been turned over to *shudder* Tangerine Dream. But they are that much better because of Herrmann and Williams, respectively. There are probably hundreds of films that fit this profile. I was asking about mediocre movies that were made into classics almost exclusively because of their composers. I suppose "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" is much better remembered because of Morricone's efforts, but in my opinion this doesn't really qualify because the film itself is actually quite stylish -- both mythic and witty -- a classic for multiple reasons. The same with "The Big Country," which is actually a very good movie, although from the moment we hear Moross' score over the opening montage with those wagon wheels and slathering horses, we know it is going to be a great movie. Again, turning to Bernstein, I would think better examples would be some of those late John Wayne pictures, most of which were not among his best. Bernstein's western idiom made them much more bearable, even enjoyable (although not even I can say as much for Landis' "Three Amigos"). Another great western score for a pretty mediocre movie is Broughton's "Silverado," IMO one of the outstanding film scores of the '80s. Although I guess it didn't quite elevate the film to classic status.

Still, interesting comments from all of you, although I was hoping for more responses. I think it is an interesting topic, and different.

I saw "Hoosiers" again not so long ago, and I must say once you've seen it once, the manipulative score starts to wear a little thin.

[Morn 8]

Another western comes to mind, The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly.  It has a memorable score, one of the true greats, but the film itself is made better because of it.  It is a good film, but with out the score it is just another spagetti western, nothing more than a grade b film.

What? That is the best western I've seen and is a great film!

And I'll add one.

Lord of the Rings, I think that Shore is around 40% of the films impact.

[Figo 2]

Sorry if I repeated a few things from your last post, Joe. I guess we were writing at the same time.

[Guest]

And I'll add one.

Lord of the Rings, I think that Shore is around 40% of the films impact.

I disagree. I was expecting much more from the LoTR ST and Shore, who is the best there is at reality based, dark movies. Silence of the lambs was much better.

With all the potential that LoTR had, The only track I realy found inventive was Concerning Hobits, which was fantastic and exactly right, but the rest was a let down for me.

Even the other clearly melodic theme (The one at the start of 13) sound very similar to Alan Silvestri's score for the Mummy 2.

[Morn 8]

It works better at supporting the film than as a cd I think. Great to very good score, definately not a masterpiece.

[Morlock 11]

@figo: could you post your own examples, since I realy don't know what your looking for.

'Jaws' is primarily fear driven. Characters are secondary. 'Jaws' would not be the least bit scary without the music. It would be intimidating for people who can't stand blood, but that's not psycological, that's just being grossed out. Same goes for 'Psyco'.

I will admit I was wrong to put Star Wars there, but not by much.

I disargee with you on 'The magnificent Seven'. I believe it was popular because of the eight actors, elevated to classic with the music, but certaintly not forgoten.

Look at Oceans' Eleven- it is hardly a classic, but is remembered for it's cast.

There are, as far as I've seen, not a single Williams, Goldsmith, Steiner or Herrmann scored movie not made better for it's music.

[stewdog1 50]

Star Trek V is a much better film because of the score as well the TMP.

I'm going to have throw Back to the Future into the fray. While a good movie in itself, the score makes it a great film. An instantly likeable main theme that is as over the top as the movie is. Works perfectly with the film, especially the first one of the trilogy.

I hope this is what Figo is looking for.

[Figo 2]

My God! How can I be any clearer?!!! Can't you people read? Or are my posts so long that I tax your presumably limited attention spans and your eyes just go down the screen?

I am asking for MEDIOCRE MOVIES MADE GREAT, through music, NOT just any movie that happened to be improved upon by an outstanding score. "Jaws" was a terrific film on all levels. The shark theme made it transcendent, but "Jaws" would have never, NEVER been brought down to the level of pure schlock. It simply wasn't possible. The film is TOO GOOD. Williams made it a pop-cultural phenomenon, even a classic. But even without the DUM-dum DUM-dum it is a primo example of virtuosic filmmaking, WITH excellent actors and, yes -- unlike most of today's blockbusters -- real characters, even *gasp* A STORY!

I already gave some of my own examples: "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Omen." Morlock, you're writing from the perspective of 20/20 hindsight. At the time TM7 was released, only Brynner was a bona fide superstar. A few years earlier, Bronson was still going by the name Buchinsky, and Steve McQueen was running from "The Blob." Likewise, Coburn's and Vaughn's best years were ahead. Of course, when we look at the film now, we say, "What a cast!" Truth is, it's not that great a movie. Incredibly overrated, in fact, and I've always thought so. Maybe it's because I actually wound up seeing "The Seven Samurai" first, and I was expecting too much. Or maybe it's because there are so many truly great westerns. In any case, it's definitely Bernstein's score that rules the roost, and you'd know that if you ever saw any of the sequels, all of them with different casts. (To say nothing of the old Marlboro campaign.)

[JoeinAR 1,949]

By your parameters, Figo, it really is asking alot. I cannot think of many mediocre films that are made great by the score. I can think of alot of films made good, or good films, made great. But to go from mediocre to great is quite a leap.

That said, 1941 is a weak film in most estimations, even with the score, but could you imagine how bad it would be without John's score.

I think Hook is a terrible film, abysmal, but the majority here feels it is a good/great film, due in large part to JW's score. Everyone knows I don't find anything special in that score, yet so many people do, I feel this falls into the criteria you asked for.

The effect music has on film can be profound. Look at the film Frankenstein, with Boris Karloff. It is a true classic. It was nothing more than a grade b film, though it has rises to its current status. Then look at its sequel Bride of Frankenstein. Bride is a much better film, on many levels. But the biggest difference is that Bride has a score of tremendous power. Frankenstein lacks a score of any kind, much to its detriment.

Moviegoers worldwide are affected by the filmmusic, though few are called to be filmmusic fans. They never fully appreciate the power music has when combined with the images on that screen.

Joe, remembering the tv show Soap, and it's character Jessica Tate, who who thought life itself needed a soundtrack.

[Morn 8]

Bride of Frankenstein? Are you talking about the Waxman score?

[stewdog1 50]

Ok, ok, Dragonheart.

[Figo 2]

Sorry for the confusion. I guess what I was asking for was the elevation of merely okay (i.e. mediocre), or 2 1/2-out-of-four-stars, to a truly memorable -- DECADES LATER memorable -- experience. In this sense, I think "The Magnificent Seven" and "The Omen" wonderfully fit the bill.

As for "Frankenstein," it is that rare animal that actually works despite the absence of wall-to-wall original score. For all that, it is definitely eclipsed by "Bride" on several levels. There is genuine wit and even self-awareness -- winking at the camera, almost -- and yet at no time does the whimsical tone compromise the monster's "humanity" and pathos. Emotionally, it's a rollercoaster of a film, and brilliantly put together. And, yes, Waxman's score is one of the greats. I marvel at its invention every time I watch the film or listen to the soundtrack. (I once had the good fortune to hear it performed in concert by a major American orchestra.)

How about the other way around? Can any of you think of great movies that succeed despite very lame scores? "It's a Wonderful Life" must be the best film I can think of with the worst score. For starters, the composer was Dimitri Tiomkin, who was quite possibly the least subtle of all the Golden Age composers (although he did occasionally turn out excellent work). He was a Russian emigre, and as such tended to lean on American folk songs, wrapping himself in the flag as only a foreigner could. Hence, it is very difficult to get through some of the Americana scores without brightly orchestrated quotations from "Yankee Doodle," "Buffalo Gals," "Red River Valley," etc. It was okay in "Mr. Smith," but doesn't work at all in "It's a Wonderful Life." What's worse, the studio actually butchered Tiomkin's original thoughts and went so far as to use bits and pieces from other scores. Telarc put out a recording of the restored version in the 1980s, and I must say, having listened to it just about every year since, it wouldn't have worked much better, particularly the hokey quotation from Beethoven's 9th in the finale. ("Merry Christmas, Bedford Falls!!") The score just plain sucked, although the film is probably in just about everybody's all-time top-10 or 20.

I also think Bill Conti did a lousy job on "The Right Stuff," cribbing all over the place (mostly from the Russian masters) and yet somehow managing only to suggest the heroism on screen in the most generalized terms. For all that, the picture is rivetting, one of the "fastest" 3 hours I have ever spent in the theatre.

[Guest]

I have different veiws than some of you. While the music may enhance the movie and make it more interesting, we still are not watching the movie just for the music. If the movie has a great plot, and everything else is done well, the movie will be a success. If the movie isn't so good though, we may mostly focus on the music to entertain us. I beleive that Star Wars would have done fine without the great Williams score because the film is great not just because of the music. But overall, music adds lots of flavor to the movie, weather the movie is great or weak. (And it keeps us awake )

[Morn 8]

I'd say pretty much everything Zimmer has scored. He can be quite good on an album, but he simply can not support a film.

[Figo 2]

Has anyone seen a British mini-series called "First Born?" It must have been out in the 1980s. Kind of a Frankenstein story, with some nature-vs.-nurture philosophy thrown into the mix. An overreaching scientist manipulates a gorilla egg so that it can be fertilized by human sperm. Pretty good yarn, although I must say the theme music is a hoot. Primitivism taken to the extreme, well beyond parody, with mixed chorus intoning "Carmina Burana"-like gorilla chants. I checked the end credits -- sure enough, music by Hans Zimmer!

[Morlock 11]

I'd say pretty much everything Zimmer has scored. He can be quite good on an album, but he simply can not support a film.

Unless your excluding the following two, I have to disagree.

His themes in 'The Rock' were amazing and fit perfectly for the movie.

Gladiator- the same. The Gladiator Waltz is wonderful without the movie, and coplements the movie outstandingly well. Same goes for 'The might of Rome', in a blatantly obvious Wagner type theme, but still very good and effective.

[Morn 8]

Infact, I was thinking of Gladiator when I was saying that. The music is inconsistant and just plain silly in some scenes. What is with the high synth brass in the arena?

[ChrisAfonso 186]

Umm... Cutthroat Island?

Although I found the film quite entertaining, I wouldn't watch it twice if it weren't for the score.

-Chris

[Harry Potter 0]

Tell us why you say that, or feel that Harry.  Give us your insight.

I can't in this thread anymore. This example doesn't fit in Figo's requirements.

~Harry

[IrishCal24 0]

What about John Carpenter's music for Halloween? It helps to elevate the movie from simply being the first slasher flick, to horror classic. While it may be rather simplistic, it's one of the most effective in the history film(my opinion), especially the main them which still gives me the creeps every time I hear it.

[bruckhorn 105]

Going deep in the well here, sportsfans, but how about Laura scored by David Raksin?

B-movie from the 1940s that is still known today because of Raksin's score. It's theme (one of the most recorded pieces ever) was recorded by JW on one of his Cinema Serenade discs.

bruckhorn

[Morn 8]

Hmm, true. Never seen that film though

[Morn 8]

Hmm, true. Never seen that film though

[Harry Potter 0]

Hmm, I wonder if I know that theme. I don't have that cd, so I can't look there. Any other suggestions?

~Harry

[Harry Potter 0]

Hmm, I wonder if I know that theme. I don't have that cd, so I can't look there. Any other suggestions?

~Harry

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Tell us why you say that, or feel that Harry.  Give us your insight.

I can't in this thread anymore. This example doesn't fit in Figo's requirements.

~Harry

Sure you can. Figo is not going to beat you up or anything like that.

Your assignment is to write at least two paragraph on why you feel what you said. You must complete the assignment by tomorrow.

Joe, who wants Harry to write a long post.

[Morn 8]

Impossible

[Harry Potter 0]

You will see that I am capable of writing a long post. It is in the works now, but it's not done.

~Harry

[Morn 8]

[JoeinAR 1,949]

You will see that I am capable of writing a long post.  It is in the works now, but it's not done.

~Harry

[Harry Potter 0]

I'm not good at "good" reviews, but these will be my words as I think of them.

~Harry

[Figo 2]

It's always good practice to support your opinions with explanations, Harry. Believe it or not, most people are interested in quality over quantity. (Or perhaps that's just the optimist in me?) Who gives a damn if you have over a thousand posts to your name, if you haven't really said anything? Trust me on this. Generally speaking, it's a good rule of thumb. It will also make you popular with the ladies.

Everyone else: Sorry I come across as such a Nazi. All comments are welcome. "Laura" is a very interesting choice. Extraordinarily famous theme. In the end, however, and despite its roots, I doubt it is any more a b-movie than "The Maltese Falcon" or "Raiders of the Lost Ark."

[Ray Barnsbury 8]

Harry's writing a long post about E.T.? I will be looking forward to this!

Ray Barnsbury

[BigKenagain 0]

It's hard to think of a mediocre film, made great by the music, one only really comes to mind and that is "The Lost Weekend" starring Ray Milland. When it was made, the movie was considered ground-breaking, I guess... but it really doesn't stand the test of time... except for the incredible score by Miklos Rozsa. Brilliant by any standard, this score does stand up to the long journey into the 21st Century and the original film is made so much better by Maestro Rozsa's efforts...

Another one IMO (sorry Figo) is Planet of the Apes. The movie would be 'MIND-NUMBINGLY boring if not for the daring 12 tone score by Jerry Goldsmith...

Big Ken: off to see "Who's Line is it Anyway?"Check with you this weekend!!!

[Harry Potter 0]

Harry's writing a long post about E.T.? I will be looking forward to this!

Ray Barnsbury

Yes, he is. And I'm looking foward to it too!

With all this high expectation, I hope I don't let anyone down!

~Harry

[Harry Potter 0]

It's always good practice to support your opinions with explanations, Harry.  Believe it or not, most people are interested in quality over quantity.  (Or perhaps that's just the optimist in me?)  Who gives a damn if you have over a thousand posts to your name, if you haven't really said anything?  Trust me on this.  Generally speaking, it's a good rule of thumb.  It will also make you popular with the ladies.

I'm glad you think so. And you know what? So do I. Recently, I have been posting short, stupid posts. I don't know exactly why, but that may be all I have time for. I want to stop this madness, but something keeps me attached to it, and I don't know why. I really never have been a "quality" poster, but I really want to try my best to do so.

~Harry, seeking advice

[Morn 8]

Another one IMO (sorry Figo) is Planet of the Apes. The movie would be 'MIND-NUMBINGLY boring if not for the daring 12 tone score by  

Jerry Goldsmith...

Umm???? That film is brilliant. And made even better with the score.

I'm glad you think so. And you know what? So do I. Recently, I have been posting short, stupid posts. I don't know exactly why, but that may be all I have time for. I want to stop this madness, but something keeps me attached to it, and I don't know why. I really never have been a "quality" poster, but I really want to try my best to do so.

You keep attaching me to it.

[Harry Potter 0]

I'm glad you think so. And you know what? So do I. Recently, I have been posting short, stupid posts. I don't know exactly why, but that may be all I have time for. I want to stop this madness, but something keeps me attached to it, and I don't know why. I really never have been a "quality" poster, but I really want to try my best to do so.

You keep attaching me to it.

I see you have a guilty conscience, Morn. I didn't mention your name in my post, but I see you want to think I was talking about you, right? Trying to get some attention is it?

Well, I'll have you know this. Just because you may have more posts than me one day soon, that doesn't mean that you are the ultimate posting champion. Most of your posts contain a single smiley, and that's all. I admit that my posts are not the best quality posts in the land, but at least I post a line.

What I am saying is I'm tired of competing to have a bigger number under my name than anyone else. Obviously, I can't and don't want to resort to shameless attempts to stay on top. It's been fun year, and perhaps more fun than most would want to see.

I wish that posters not happy with the likes of me and my posts to please return to the board. We miss you all!

~Harry

[Morn 8]

Most of your posts contain a single smiley, and that's all.

That is a huge lie.

What I am saying is I'm tired of competing to have a bigger number under my name than anyone else. Obviously, I can't and don't want to resort to shameless attempts to stay on top

I only do when others do.

[Figo 2]

Nothing against you personally, Harry. It does get tedious to run down screen after screen of single-line remarks, especially if they have no real content. Sometimes a zinger or an emoticon is irresistible. I can understand that. But posting a line just to stay on top is silly. Nobody cares who has the highest number of posts. What they do care about is sifting through pages of dreck until they finally get to something worthy of attention. People won't always stick around for the punchline. Especially when it becomes apparent after a few topics that there really is none.

[Gamecube 0]

Wow Figo! You stood up to the all powerful Harry Potter.

Just hope he does'nt blow you into a million peices.

[Harry Potter 0]

Nothing against you personally, Harry.  It does get tedious to run down screen after screen of single-line remarks, especially if they have no real content.  Sometimes a zinger or an emoticon is irresistible.  I can understand that.  But posting a line just to stay on top is silly.  Nobody cares who has the highest number of posts.  What they do care about is sifting through pages of dreck until they finally get to something worthy of attention.  People won't always stick around for the punchline.  Especially when it becomes apparent after a few topics that there really is none.

Well said. You wrote exactly what I was thinking. I'm tired of posting garbage, and I am making a conscience effort to post more than nonsense. Please bear with me!

~Harry

[Harry Potter 0]

Wow Figo! You stood up to the all powerful Harry Potter.  

Just hope he does'nt blow you into a million peices.

Oh, no. He didn't stand up to me. He's the one that is showing me the light! I am going to become a better poster, one that's helpful and healthy to the spirit of the message board.

About my E.T. post -- I haven't been home all day, so I didn't get it finished, but I should have it for you all tomorrow.

~Harry