.

[Jacob 0]

This is the part with the troopers on the walkers (The Imperial March, aka Darth Vader's Theme):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAQ9P9H12hc

I don't recall any of the Imperial material from Episode IV being in Sith.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Wojo 2,453]

Ok, so a theme is a complete musical idea, while a motif is much smaller. We could have long debates about which large motifs deserve to be called themes, and which short themes are actually motifs. I couldn't care less.

I was talking about the Imperial motif/theme from Star Wars (Episode IV if you must). I have put my audio book on hold to listen to Ep III and see if I can tell where it is the film I'm talking about, because I'm not stupid.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Datameister 2,043]

To my knowledge, Williams never again referenced the Imperial motif after Star Wars. The holoconference with Yoda on Kashyyyk was scored with music tracked from TPM, and there's no Imperial motif. The Imperial March does indeed get a fun little cameo later, as the walkers are surveying Kashyyyk, but no Imperial motif.

[Ollie 1,059]

When I see Imperial Theme, I automatically think Imperial March from TESB.

I consider the version from Star Wars to be a motif.

[Red 75]

When I see Imperial Theme, I automatically think Imperial March from TESB.

I consider the version from Star Wars to be a motif.

Agreed.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I'm puzzled Mark that given the quality of Star Wars(better than ESB IMHO) and ESB that to the ESB fans in particular anything in aotc and sith would even register. Now Phantom Menance is different, John actually did more than go through the motions. It's clear he'd lost all interest given the massive amount of music from Star Wars used in sith, he just didn't care but at least he used good filler.

Massive amounts of music from Star Wars were not used in Sith.

yes there is.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

- (TPM) Main Title is obviously from Star Wars

- Rebel Fanfare briefly featured (seconds) in space battle

- Ben's/Force theme throughout, and what would you have him use?

- Luke and Leia's respective themes at the very end, ditto.

- End credits suite containing most of the Star Wars music--Leia's Theme, some of Imperial Attack and Throne Room. Not even used. It just seemed to be recorded as a big send-off for the album or some other intent.

That's it.

[Datameister 2,043]

Joey's opinion trumps anyone else's facts...you should know this by now!

[Henry B 50]

Actually isn't it more of a motif than theme?

Motif/motive and theme are the same thing. I'm not sure how the difference arose regarding film music.

[Marian Schedenig 8,193]

Actually isn't it more of a motif than theme?

Motif/motive and theme are the same thing. I'm not sure how the difference arose regarding film music.

Yeah, I still say it's absurd. The traditional musical definition, put very very simply, is that a motif is short, and a theme is longer. A leitmotif can be any length, i.e. a motif or a theme. And I guess the whole confusion started because "theme" is often used synonymously with "leitmotif" - which I guess is fine, unless you then start contrasting it with the traditional definitions.

Anyway, on topic: Star Wars. It has Leia's Theme, which is one of Williams best and most "unique" themes and absolutely brilliant. It would we a tough competition between that and ESB's Imperial March, but SW gets the edge for premiering both the main/Luke theme and the force theme (and naturally giving them more workout than most of the later scores). (I'm quite partial to the Death Star motif, too)

[Wojo 2,453]

A "leitmotif" is a motif that is assigned to represent a particular person, place or idea. And yes, the word "theme" is used interchangeably, by composers while discussing their scores, by fans discussing the scores, by album makers who name the tracks on the albums, and by the folks that write the liner notes. I've got a ton of soundtracks with tracks named "So and So's Theme," but I'd be very hard pressed to find any tracks in my collection called "So and So's Motif" or "So and So's Leitmotif."

You can dissect a theme to find its component motifs, or you could hear motifs all over the place that never really "grow" into a theme. The Death Star motif and Imperial motif from Star Wars are good examples: are they motifs because they're so short that they don't have their own concert arrangement?

I see a shark fin in the water. Da-dum. Two notes on the piano. Is that a motif or a theme? It represents the idea of the shark, but it's awfully short. Now I play it over and over again, and lower one of the notes and accent it. When does it become a theme? Before or after I add the French horn?

Motifs and themes are interchangeable just like cold and frigid, or hot and scalding, are. It's about degree and perspective.

[Datameister 2,043]

Obviously, there are gray areas. But if you decide themes are going to be longer musical ideas and motifs are going to be shorter ones, many musical ideas are pretty easy to categorize. "Across the Stars" is obviously a theme; it's got numerous long melody lines. And the series of four notes used for the Death Star in Star Wars is clearly a motif; it's just a quick musical building block that can be plugged in where necessary.

[Jacob 0]

Massive amounts of music from Star Wars were not used in Sith.

yes there is.

Not really, no.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

He never elaborates. I certainly agree that the prequels are not great scores, but I can not agree with this. It just isn't right.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Massive amounts of music from Star Wars were not used in Sith.

yes there is.

Not really, no.

sorry Jack but it does, there is about 15 minutes of star wars music, that's alot. Thankfully for that score that part elevates it.

[Jacob 0]

Where is all this reused Star Wars music?

The main title? The variations of the Force Theme used throughout? The mirrored binary sunset finale? The end credits?

Namez, Heir Jozeph. Ve vwant names.

[Gruesome Son of a Bitch 6,488]

Most of it is in the unused end credits. There's no way that was composed for the movie. Like I said, it seems to have been intended as an album suite, a send-off for Star Wars and the LSO or something. This criticism makes no sense.

[Jacob 0]

In the score proper, material from Phantom Menace was reused more than anything else.

Escape from Naboo

The Tide Turns

That 'Return to Naboo' fanfare

Duel of the Fates

Qui-Gon's Funeral (Twice!)

This would be (and is) a legitimate criticism.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Where is all this reused Star Wars music?

The main title? The variations of the Force Theme used throughout? The mirrored binary sunset finale? The end credits?

Namez, Heir Jozeph. Ve vwant names.

you named it Jac, btw nobody named Joseph here, get it correct bub.

btw battle of the heroes is inappropriately named and among the weakest sith tracks. It really is almost terrible.

Most of it is in the unused end credits. There's no way that was composed for the movie. Like I said, it seems to have been intended as an album suite, a send-off for Star Wars and the LSO or something. This criticism makes no sense.

sure it does, its on the album, which makes it the only parts that are listenable. John was thinking what a piece of shit movie, f**k george, what the hell are you thinking. Damn, I didn't know there were any childhoods left to rape. George replied, well James Horner I don't know what you're talking about.

[Jacob 0]

Where is all this reused Star Wars music?

The main title? The variations of the Force Theme used throughout? The mirrored binary sunset finale? The end credits?

you named it...

As questions. Objectively, there's plenty of criticism that can be levied at Sith. I just don't buy that this is one of them.

- The Main Title is reused for all the movies.

- The variations on the Force Theme are no more a reuse of Star Wars material than the unique variations in the other sequels.

- The finale cue is certainly an homage to Binary Sunset and appropriately so given the scene. Still, it's not a verbatim quote.

- The end credits were disappointingly unoriginal, even for me. But that's really the only instance where Star Wars was directly and unfortunately reused.

Anyway, I don't want to drag this on.

Star Wars is a truly great musical work. Revenge of the Sith isn't, and it certainly stands on Star Wars' shoulders.

But it still resonates with me in ways that Star Wars doesn't. And it has a special place because it kindled my love for film music and was my first album.

Star Wars is still my favorite, by the way.

[King Mark 3,631]

The only thing annoying in the RotS music is:

-ESB music in Anakin vs. ObiWan

-re-recording of Gui-Gon's Funeral for Padmes death

-re-recording of Throne Room for End Credits

-Tracked music from TPM and AotC in several key scenes like the march to Jedi Temple

The other 115 minutes or so of the score are pretty great even if it's not on par with the Original Trilogy. It's the same quality as the Harry Potter scores lets say.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Insanity KM. but you and vosk and ms padme enjoy.

[Jacob 0]

We will.

[Wojo 2,453]

The only thing annoying in the RotS music is:

-ESB music in Anakin vs. ObiWan

-re-recording of Gui-Gon's Funeral for Padmes death

-re-recording of Throne Room for End Credits

-Tracked music from TPM and AotC in several key scenes like the march to Jedi Temple

The other 115 minutes or so of the score are pretty great even if it's not on par with the Original Trilogy. It's the same quality as the Harry Potter scores lets say.

You left out the tracked music from Gladiator -- or at least it's Lisa Gerrard passing a kidney stone -- for when Padme "ruminates." Terrible music. The most un-Star Wars like music since Jabba's revamped song and dance number.

[Ollie 1,059]

So if I call the Imperial music from Star Wars a motif or theme, I'm correct either way?

[Wojo 2,453]

Yes.

That's why its successor is named "The Imperial March (Darth Vader's Theme)" to prevent confusion.

[fommes 153]

Because I feel the poll is about experiencing new John Williams themes, I disregarded the original trilogy, since I didn't see those in theatres when they came out, so the newness of the themes was lost on me. All of the themes just belong to the original trilogy (there's less separation between them in my mind).

I was going to vote for The Phantom Menace, because it has the greatest new piece (Duel of the Fates), but I'm not too big a fan of Anakin's Theme and Jar Jar's. So I went with Across the Stars, which I feel has the greatest array of new themes - they're just not worked out very well (apart from the love theme). It's a shame, because there's some great stuff in there, like the Kamino sequences etc.