Star Trek Beyond (2016 Justin Lin) - The Big Bad Star Trek (X)III Thread

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What would have been the point of a reboot?

[Wojo 2,453]

I don't know. Make money?

A straight up sequel can do what it wants because it's in the future. But to tell stories in the past, prequels and interquels must strictly adhere to what has come before. I know that's laughable in Star Trek which is horribly inconsistent, but redesigning technology, redefining characters, and revisiting previously seen places, events, and discoveries that conflict with canon is not allowed.

But if you reboot the time line in an alternate universe, you're no longer painted into a corner. The entire galaxy is open to bend and break as you see fit. Originality goes right out the airlock because now what came before never happened, and you can do whatever you want. That's the point of a reboot. A do-over. A chance to do it better. Not something different or unique, what would be the point. That's why Enterprise felt so limited. Everything it did had to fit within canon, making it either safe (boring) or forgotten by the end of the show.

I forgive Star Trek for the Nero story, that was the necessary sequel/reboot connecting piece. But STID forsook originality for retelling established stories in a different way. I don't expect them to return to originality this far along.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

Wojo, the story was original, it was Khan that was recycled, along with certain classic lines and tropes, and certain story elements and ideas, especially from TWOK.

True originality of story is very rare, even in Star Trek, if the stories are distilled to their essence.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Wojo, the story was original, it was Khan that was recycled, along with certain classic lines and tropes, and certain story elements and ideas, especially from TWOK.

True originality of story is very rare, even in Star Trek, if the stories are distilled to their essence.

what universe are you in where STID was original, its was the most recycled damn thing of the summer.

The Borg already appeared in Enterprise, which predates the alternate timeline shift. They would fit, but for the idea that the signal would take 70 some years to reach the Delta Quadrant, thus absolving Q of some of the blame for introducing Starfleet to the Borg. The Borg were on their way.

How about Q then? Let's sit back and watch how well the X-Men time bender does, and then maybe Star Trek can do some kind of timeline jumping story along the lines of the Q Squared novel: three timelines of the TNG show intersecting because Trelane is revealed to be an out of control immature Q. It would be a great way to get the TNG cast in on the fun.

it was going to take 200 years for the signal to reach the Borg Zero zero one. the alternative time line shouldn't have accelerated that but who knows.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

Elements: Yes. Story: Not as much.

How many Star Trek stories can be summed up as a terrorist strikes at Starfleet, turns out to be fighting to free his people from a rogue Starfleet admiral, and forces the crew to pit their orders against the fundamental principles of the Federation and the morality and ethics of due process in pursuit of justice?

[JoeinAR 1,949]

terrorist striking Star Fleet......hmmmm never saw that before.....nope not once....

rouge Star Fleet admiral.......hmmmm never saw that before.....nope not once....

never saw the enemy challenge the crew of the Enterprise over moral codes and ethics........never saw that before......nope not once.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

And other "unoriginal story points" for the list:

A Starship, the characters of Kirk, Spock and McCoy, Klingons and Transporters. I'm SHOCKED at the unoriginal nature of those.

You are still pointing out individual elements, and not the OVERALL story AS A WHOLE.

Which really, is more original than you give it credit for.

Name an episode that combines all or most of those elements in one unified, cohesive story.

[Wojo 2,453]

You're right, Joey, 200. For just that moment, I used Kirk as the baseline for the calculation, not Archer. Oops.

OneBuck, through about 29 seasons of shows and ten movies, there were always rehashes of plot elements that we had seen before. Hell, half of the TOS episodes are mostly reduced to "first contact goes badly, send help." TNG and VOY had to repeat that formula until they built sets of aliens they could use multiple times. The issue with STID is that the plot is so saturated with the most commonly used plot devices we've see before, with only the faintest hint of going boldly to explore. That was tacked on before the movie started.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Into Darkness is TWOK +Space Seed+ Nemesis.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

Wojo, you're right, as far as you go.

But plot elements are only part of the story.

The film is a new story with those elements, and is thus an original story.

Since prior Star Trek did not do the Exploring of strange new worlds anywhere near the level it's opening monologue would have us believe, it is about as original as the rest of the franchise.

But it also does one thing very, very right: Socual commentary and allegory.

It does a good job of touching on due process (Kirk incurs Spock's ire for going on a mission to assassinate someone without trial or due process, for example).

It presents a good allegory for the user of unmanned drones for attack (the long-range torpedoes being aimed at Qo'noS to get to Harrison).

It hilights the danger of crossing a sovereign border without permissions (again, those long range torpedoes, then the landing party going undercover to Qo'noS.).

And also what happens when a defense policy is overtaken by fear (Admiral Marcus).

Even the covert use of dangerous individuals for our own ends (The way Marcus used Harrison).

This is an intelligent, relevent set of allegorical elements within an action adventure story. The very heart of Star Trek, IMHO.

As for the "Strange, New World", and the lack of that element, this is something that aside from the teaser, is lacking in the film.

I guess it comes down to what constitutes originality vs. reuse.

A completely original movie would not be Star Trek, but within the action-adventure, family and allegorical nature of Star Trek, it is a pretty original story.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No it aint!

[Wojo 2,453]

Mathematically speaking, all combinations made from a defined set are unique combinations.

Maybe all of Star Trek has only used 50 plot devices. Most of the movies, at least the most successful ones, tend to use the most popular devices. Are they different combinations? Yes. Are they still nauseatingly similar? Yup.

Is it original? Well, STID never existed until it did, so it has that going for it. I still dislike the idea that out of everything they had to choose from, all the great characters who ever graced the screen or could, they had to settle for the greatest Trek villain ever and reuse him for a different adventure. So I'm miffed about that. Khan could have been reinvented as a gay singer with a Talaxian partner named Fred, and I would still think it's unoriginal.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

And other "unoriginal story points" for the list:

A Starship, the characters of Kirk, Spock and McCoy, Klingons and Transporters. I'm SHOCKED at the unoriginal nature of those.

You are still pointing out individual elements, and not the OVERALL story AS A WHOLE.

Which really, is more original than you give it credit for.

Name an episode that combines all or most of those elements in one unified, cohesive story.

do not pass Go, do not collect 200 dollars. The overall story as a whole is wholey unoriginal.

Strange New World, to Seek out New Life, and New Civilizations, to Boldy Go Where No Man has gone before or has.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

So tell me which episode, movie or book is being copied for the overall story. Don't talk about where ideas come from, or about elements common with other stories, we know those exist without debate.

Tell me the source for the OVERALL story outline.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

So tell me which episode, movie or book is being copied for the overall story. Don't talk about where ideas come from, or about elements common with other stories, we know those exist without debate.

Tell me the source for the OVERALL story outline

Wrath of Khan. He's the major character, the major villain. You can hem and haw all you want but you're wrong that the story is overall original.

as for the source probably from some plume of marijuana or the rush of a syringe filled with coke or meth.

Dude............what if we do our version of Khan.

fuck yeah

KHAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

So tell me which episode, movie or book is being copied for the overall story. Don't talk about where ideas come from, or about elements common with other stories, we know those exist without debate.

Tell me the source for the OVERALL story outline

Wrath of Khan. He's the major character, the major villain. You can hem and haw all you want but you're wrong that the story is overall original.

as for the source probably from some plume of marijuana or the rush of a syringe filled with coke or meth.

Dude............what if we do our version of Khan.

fuck yeah

KHAAAAAAANNNNNNNNNNNNNNN.

Khan is an element, a character. But before this film, he was never manipulated by an admiral to help build and design weapons to beef up Starfleet ready to start a war with the Klingons.

Also, in this film, Khan is not looking for revenge.

You have not supported your position logically.

Well, not revenge on Kirk anyway.

[Matt C 454]

Orci & Kurtzman are back to pen the script for Star Trek 3, sadly. (Lindelof isn't returning, so I guess we can be grateful for small favors.)

LIndelof just did the rewrite for Into Darkness, those two did most of it. Unless they're just credited for characters used.

The writing credits for STID reads: "Written by Roberto Orci & Alex Kurtzman & Damon Lindelof". That suggests all three collaborated together on the script at some point during development. If Lindelof was brought in separately to do the rewrite -- the second ampersand would be replaced with "and". Same thing with Transformers: Revenge of the Fallen... even though Orci & Kurtzman blame Ehren Kruger for dumbing the script down with his rewrite -- all three were hired together to pen the script.

[Ollie 1,059]

Actually STID is closer to Insurrection as well.

I'm surprised no one made the Edge Of Darkness plot connection, if they did, my apologies because I missed it.

It takes the protagonist of that book and splits it into two people, Marcus and Khan. And of course the title references the story as well.

Although Insurrection ended up being a more lighthearted fare than originally intended.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, they intended the comedy I think.

[Ollie 1,059]

No the first draft was intended as a serious story.

Over at FSM in the Insurrection thread there is a link to an unpublished book from one the writers on TNG who also wrote the film. It details the entire process behind writing the movie and the changes it went through.

Kinda disappointing where the film ended up at considering the first draft.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I rather like it.

[Ollie 1,059]

Here is the direct link to the book:

http://nightly.net/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_id=5159

[JoeinAR 1,949]

it's pretty clear that the writers while brainstorming thought of Khan, just as the folks here brainstorming about what to do next after ST2009 thought they could do Khan. better heads prevail over here, to bad they didn't at Paramount. People bitch and moan about Berman and Braga but Orzi and Kurtzman haven't shown any superiority. Thank God for superior casting.

I would love for the next film to be less about the security of Earth directly, but more about the Enterprise during exploration, and just have the Enterprise and her crew in mortal danger. Lower the scale. Make it more intimate. Annihilation of Star Fleet shoudn't be even a consideration. No revenge, just a misunderstanding that gets way out of hand.

[Jay 37,367]

I would love for the next film to be less about the security of Earth directly, but more about the Enterprise during exploration, and just have the Enterprise and her crew in mortal danger. Lower the scale. Make it more intimate. Annihilation of Star Fleet shoudn't be even a consideration. No revenge, just a misunderstanding that gets way out of hand.

Yes yes yes, this please!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

if the writers must steal, and with Orzi and Kurtzman that's all they know how to do then please guys turn your eyes on

Balance of Terror, if nothing more as a guide to good story telling.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No!

The Final Frontier! With rock monsters this time! Proof Shatner right!

[Wojo 2,453]

Somehow, Chris Pine telling off God wouldn't be original. But it would be better than Ardra.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

Going forward, it would be nice not to rely on elements from the Prime universe as much. Introduce something completely new, and give us a "Strange New World" with "New Life and Civilizations".

I'm sure it can be done in spectacular fashion, and keeping up the excitement levels of the first two films.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

Going forward, it would be nice not to rely on elements from the Prime universe as much. Introduce something completely new, and give us a "Strange New World" with "New Life and Civilizations".

I'm sure it can be done in spectacular fashion, and keeping up the excitement levels of the first two films.

orzi and kurtzman are igits, and not capable of your first sentence. They're already focusing on Harry Mudd no doubt.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

igits? I thought my personal autocorrect was bad.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

igits is a slang term. but it is not complimentary.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

Actually, if they were the "igits" you believe them to be, then Star Trek (2009) would have been a failure.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I think the film is a failure of story. It's so inept and full of holes. The two films are saved by average directing, but superior casting and acting.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

I don't think it was an overall failure of story, but yes, there were some interesting plot holes, more in 2009 than ID.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I agree, I think STID is a better overall film.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

2009 had very glaring and obvious ones. Darkness has ones that go deeper and are more insidious.

[OneBuckFilms 320]

2009 had very glaring and obvious ones. Darkness has ones that go deeper and are more insidious.

Kinda like the films themselves.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

I will buy it next month.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

I never even bought the 2009 one.

[JoeinAR 1,949]

you can get it dirt cheap theses days. I was our first blu ray.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

It was the first film in saw in HD on my TV.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Whats an igit?

[Wojo 2,453]

Quick way of saying idiot.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ummm...no it ain't

[Wojo 2,453]

Two syllables, for when you don't have time for three.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Im-be-ci-le!

[Faleel 5,350]

IH-DGE-IT

[Wojo 2,453]

There really isn't any sense arguing slang American pronunciation with people for whom English is not a first language.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

What a dumb and pig ignorant thing to say.

[Wojo 2,453]

There are two kinds of people in this world. Those who get it, and igits.