The official JWFAN.net The Hobbit ending: book versus TBOFA speculation thread thingy (SPOILERS!!!)

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

This thread is meant for people who have read the book and therefor know something about how the film COULD end. If you have not read the book and wish to remain spoiler free, the CLOSE THIS THREAD NOW. This is your only warning!

So in the book Thorin, Kili and Fili die. But of course it's possible that the film will not stick to that in favor of something original. Perhaps in an effort to "surprise" the fans. (though annoy them would be more likely)

It does seem likely that Thorin will die though. It would fit his arc. A essentially noble character driven to greed by his lust for the Arkenstone, only to redeem himself on the field of battle, giving his life. It can be assumed that he will perish after an epic final battle with Azog the Defiler.

It's essentially a total redo of Boromir. But done right it can work.

as for Kili, i do see the possibility of a diversion from the book there.

My prediction is that he will live. He will lose Tauriel in some way, which will leave him forever saddened. But he will take up his uncle's place and be the ruler of Erebor. Becoming sort of a sadder version of Aragorn. One who's loss has granted him wisdom beyond his young age.

Fili might die to reinforce that idea.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Apart from Thorin, Kili is the Dwarf that has gotten the most exposure so far. Fili has had almost none.

For me that is an indicator that Fili will die, with Thorin and Tauriel. As the younger brother of Fili, Kili will instead take the throne.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

I honestly don't care. I just posted others' thoughts so that your thread wouldn't die miserably.

[Barnald 365]

All three will die. They must. There's many references in interviews to suggest this is the case, and we also have this:

http://www.theonering.net/torwp/2014/09/18/92748-which-dwarves-will-survive-the-battle-of-the-five-armies/

Yes, Balin, Oin and Ori aren't mentioned also, but this is because they have ventured to Moria by this point. However sad it is, it'll be complete bullshit if any of Kili or Fili live. I'm sure there was an interview involving Adam Brown and Dean O'Gorman where the former said something like 'At least I live'.

What worries me greatly is the role of Tauriel and Legolas in the climax of the battle. We see a good deal of them on the Ravenhill in the trailer, and there's a hell of a lot of Elvish material in 'Ravenhill' and 'To The Death'; indeed, far too much for my liking. Kili and Fili should die defending Thorin, but I just can't see how this is going to happen now with Tauriel being involved. If Kili sacrifices himself for Tauriel I'll be disgusted. I've gone along with these films up to this point, enjoyed and defended them, but this is the tipping point for me. I'm hoping she just comes across his body afterwards and mourns him, but I know my fears will be realized. Legolas killing Bolg irks me enough. It should be Dain killing Azog and Beorn killing Bolg, to at least give these characters who will arrive late to the party something important to do.

Just highlights how unnecessary the additions of Legolas and Tauriel are. It's one thing when they're hogging the screen, but another when they're intruding on crucial moments which should be left as is.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

If all three dies, and Dain doesnt get a very big role, it's gonna feel quite depressing.

[Barnald 365]

It will be depressing no doubt, but Dain has to have something. It is undoubtedly worrying that we've seen so little of him. It is especially concerning since a rumour appeared last month that Connolly was being replaced by a CGI creation. It came from an odd source on Blu-ray.com forums, though he claimed to have inside contacts having worked on the old LOTR magazine. I gave it short shrift at the time, but we're now just over a month away and we've seen nothing of Connolly, and so I'm left wondering and worrying. Can anyone think of another Middle-earth film where this has been the case and it wasn't a CGI character involved, especially one thrown together late on? (In recent times Azog and Bolg spring to mind - we even saw the Great Goblin well in advance, and of course Smaug). Would they really go to these lengths to cover up Dain's reveal if it was just Connolly in prosthetics and he'd finished filming ages ago? We had seen pics of Beorn by this time last year, and his role was very brief in the theatrical cut. I don't want to turn doom monger, but it's another cause for concern until we see final images of Dain. Orcs and creatures are one thing, but an entirely CGI Dain would look fucking awful, especially one done at the last-minute.

I don't doubt Dain will be in the film - the prominence of his theme on the soundtrack pretty much confirms that. But it's his appearance and the extent of his role which concerns me. Will he be deemed largely EE fodder? Will they leave his coronation for that? I truly hope not. If they filmed the flashback meeting at the Ered Luin then yes by all means include that in the EE, but they have to give him something meaty in the TC.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Dwarves have always been played by humans!

[Glóin the Dark 1,221]

There's been far too low a body count in these films so far. I'm hoping they all die, except for Balin, Glóin and Ori.

I think Kili's fate was pretty much sealed when he mentioned how his mother worries for his safety.

[Barnald 365]

Unless CGI doubles of course, but if they've recently decided that the design was flawed we know they wouldn't re-do the scenes with a human - just look at Azog and Bolg.

[Incanus 5,715]

Keep calm people. Everything is going to be awesome!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

But is awesome speculation not also awesome?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

It should be Dain killing Azog and Bolg killing Beorn

Yeah, sure...

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

No, Thorin should kill Azog, and die in the aftermath.

[Barnald 365]

It should be Dain killing Azog and Bolg killing Beorn

Yeah, sure...

You have to admit though, that would be a turn up for the books...

[Jay 37,364]

I'll bet you a million dollars Kili dies

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

man, this movie is gonna be a downer. In LOTR only one of the Fellowship died!

[Wojo 2,453]

The elf army in the trailer looked big enough to conquer Barad-Dur if they hadn't pussed out by the time of the next war.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Yet 60 years later there weren't enough Elves left to muster an army.

The problem with this battle is that it's probably going look even bigger then ROTK, even though it shouldnt.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

The problem with this battle is that it's probably going look even bigger then ROTK, even though it shouldnt.

Why not?

[Incanus 5,715]

Because the sheer numbers of War of the Ring should be bigger and PJ is probably pushing for really big armies in BOFA to make them look even somewhat formidable against the scale of the mountain.

The elf army in the trailer looked big enough to conquer Barad-Dur if they hadn't pussed out by the time of the next war.

I think they will be culled a bit before the War of the Ring and have their own little problem from the army of Dol Guldur when Sauron's forces attack both Lothlorien and the Woodland Realm. Again PJ is probably grossly exaggerating the number of the people in each army to make it look impressive. In truth the elves were not that numerous and many died in the battle of the five armies. And with each dead elf you don't get many new ones born into the world. Orcs can be bred by the thousands in 60 years.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

Because the sheer numbers of War of the Ring should be bigger

Why? Who said that?

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Because at this point the forces of Sauron should not yet be anywhere near the numbers of when he takes back his fortress at Barad dur, and starts to really fortify his positions an build his troops.

Because the sheer numbers of War of the Ring should be bigger

Why? Who said that?

You are being fatuous, surely?

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

No, I'm genuinely wondering why you guys keep on saying things should be like that and not otherwise.

There is absolutely nothing in these films that states that the battles in ROTK were bigger than the battle of Erebor.

Yes there is no indication in the films no. But of course we are always making these statements based on the novels, silly us. RotK should obviously be bigger but there is no guarantee that it is so in the films.

In the novel the battle of the five armies, while regionally big, is just a skirmish compared to the grand military operations of the War of the Ring where thousands upon thousands of Sauron's troops marched against Gondor.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

This is an adaptation. If you want something faithful to the book, just read the damn book.

You are really rubbing me the wrong way BBoal.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

And you and Stiff are rubbing me the wrong way by saying "this battle shouldn't be bigger than the ones in ROTK just because that's the way it was in the book"!

Well one would expect, despite this being an adaptation, that they wouldn't try to diminish the scale of the greatest conflict of the age in RotK by outstaging it in the Hobbit, which is admittedly a smaller story. But that is just me.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

Ofcourse I've always assumed that the biggest battle in terms of size was the last alliance between Men and Elves. The Elven folk still plentiful in numbers, and the race of men led by the descendants of the Men of Numenor, their line still untainted by the blood of lesser men.

Well one would expect, despite this being an adaptation, that they wouldn't try to diminish the scale of the greatest conflict of the age in RotK by outstaging it in the Hobbit, which is admittedly a smaller story. But that is just me.

I kind of agree with you there. But I think we all know this wont be the case and PJ will just go all out bat shit on this one, hoping to visually outdo his previous battles.

Now even though I adore the massive scpe of his battles in TTT and ROTK, I do still have a special fondness for the small one at the end of FOTR.

A hundred or so extra's, but REAL ones, no MASSIVE software.

It actually looked really impressive back then.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Incanus 5,715]

And you and Stiff are rubbing me the wrong way by saying "this battle shouldn't be bigger than the ones in ROTK just because that's the way it was in the book"!

Well one would expect, despite this being an adaptation, that they wouldn't try to diminish the scale of the greatest conflict of the age in RotK by outstaging it in the Hobbit, which is admittedly a smaller story. But that is just me.

How is it a smaller story? Sauron makes an alliance with Smaug to conquer all of the north of Middle-Earth, and later, the remaining lands. Doesn't sound small to me.

Smaller than the War of the Ring. Sorry. There is no comparison.

In the world of the films it might be the biggest battle we have yet witnessed, awesomely.

Still regarding the death of Thorin, Fili and Kili I suspect the film makers remain loyal to the novel.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

You are just taking the piss now.

[Incanus 5,715]

It's BBoal, of course he is.

His official function here is to get a rise out of us. Makes sense.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

His official function here is to get a rise out of us. Makes sense.

I'm sorry...I'm fucking sorry, but that is MY official function, and has been since 2000!

You should be ashamed of yourself!

[gkgyver 1,645]

All three will die, plus Tauriel, plus maybe Dwalin or Bombur, because honestly, who cares?

Saruman will die at the hand of Sauron, and then revived.

[Incanus 5,715]

His official function here is to get a rise out of us. Makes sense.

I'm sorry...I'm fucking sorry, but that is MY official function, and has been since 2000!

You should be ashamed of yourself!

You were the original one though. You should take it as a compliment, this imitation. Not all spawn such a cult following as you have done. BBoal among your keenest and shoutiest acolytes.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

For all those arts and subtle devices, for which Bloodboal foresook his former wisdom, and which fondly imagined were his own, came but from Stefancos, so that what he made was naught, only a little copy, a child's model or a slave's flattery, of that vast intelligence, wit, acumen, stamina of great posting power, Stefancos, the Dutch One, who suffered no rival, and laughed at flattery, biding his time, secure in his pride and his immeasurable post-count.

[KK 3,307]

I kind of agree with you there. But I think we all know this wont be the case and PJ will just go all out bat shit on this one, hoping to visually outdo his previous battles.

Quite literally!

Now even though I adore the massive scpe of his battles in TTT and ROTK, I do still have a special fondness for the small one at the end of FOTR.

A hundred or so extra's, but REAL ones, no MASSIVE software.

It actually looked really impressive back then.

And Lurtz! This guy makes Azog look like a baby wimp!

And at the very least, the big battles in TTT and RotK tried to incorporate as many real elements as they could!

[JoeinAR 1,949]

They should kill bilbo then fans will really freak out.

[KK 3,307]

man, this movie is gonna be a downer. In LOTR only one of the Fellowship died!

Well these films need some gravity

Kili will die for certain, you can hear a sad rendition of Tauriel and Kili in the samples. And now I'm sure you'll say "maybe Tauriel dies". Possibly, but if so, she'll die with Kili. I am 99% Kili will die.

Thorin is also going to die, that seems obvious.

Fili might survive. Since we haven't seen much of him, his death won't have much resonance with the audience anyway. And considering Kili and Fili are the next heirs to the throne, I suppose it makes sense that Fili lives to reign?

Though I would like all of them to die!

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

And at the very least, the big battles in TTT and RotK tried to incorporate as many real elements as they could!

ROTK looked pretty over the top and artificial to me.

[BloodBoal 7,538]

[Barnald 365]

Lurtz is a bit contradictory. He's too much of a coward to engage Boromir in hand-to-hand combat, yet he shows an apparent indifference towards death with his blade-licking and pulling the sword deeper antics, which looking back I find a little over-the-top and unnecessary.

[#SnowyVernalSpringsEternal 10,265]

He isnt a very good character. I much prefer Azog.

[KK 3,307]

And at the very least, the big battles in TTT and RotK tried to incorporate as many real elements as they could!

ROTK looked pretty over the top and artificial to me.

In parts, yes (especially when the army of the dead arrive).

But it still looks very impressive, and despite the grandiosity of it all, the scale still leaves quite an impression. And it sitll looks better than most of the action/battle sequences in The Hobbit (or what snippets we've seen in the trailer).

A lot of it has to do with how they filmed a lot of real charge scenes, with REAL HORSES (something these new hobbit films have neglected for some reason) with a bunch of extras in real locations to help reinforce the reality between the big army shots.

The Mumakil reveal is still badass. (though it's followed by some questionable green screen work, which is excused because a lot of real shots are integrated with it)

And there's something about seeing the beautiful design and sets of Minas Tirith being destroyed that sends the chilld down your spine.

And when the Nazgul sweep in at 0:35-ish - orgasmic

The Gothmog bit before that was typical PJ excess though.

Lurtz is a bit contradictory. He's too much of a coward to engage Boromir in hand-to-hand combat, yet he shows an apparent indifference towards death with his blade-licking and pulling the sword deeper antics, which looking back I find a little over-the-top and unnecessary.

Huh. That never bothered me.

It adds theatricality to the character, and even though the blade-licking may have been unceessary, it does the job far better than anything Azog has done. Azog looks phony, and like a diseased version of Captain Hook. Lurtz was truly terrifying (at least to me when I first watched it), and has no stupid back story or plot device to carry around the film. He's an effective minor villain to add the perfect amount of conflict to end the first film.

[Barnald 365]

I agree - Azog is a better villain than Lurtz. But Lurtz could be a minor villain. All of them were in LOTR in the grand scheme of things. Azog has a lot to carry on his shoulders to be fair to the big lump.

Lurtz terrifying? I suppose it depends how old you were when you saw it. I saw him as badass at the time, no doubt about that.