Miz

If you want to Download rare Soundtracks there is a website out there for you... I've seen a complete version of Jurassic World, but from where I don't know. I'm also looking out for a complete Tomorrowland and complete Pan from this mysterious place.

Enough banter and confusion over 1977 leitmotif! I've been enjoying the new themes for Rogue One more since realising their attunement to the Force theme. Playing said theme on keyboard in concert with Guardians of the Whills is tricky, but elucidates some similarities; playing alongside the Jyn theme, especially the Eadu finale (in D, I think), shows just how well it is interwoven with the Force theme. Any takers?

It was even more ropey in Shadows of the Empire. Arf. As for this score: many thanks to the Star Wars Oxygen team for show 38. The sound editing in the beginning was promising but the speaking and banter pretty cack-handed. However, there is more surprising nuance in this score: Guardians of the Whills theme appears to be modelled on a one-off motif from Tales of a Jedi Knight - Learn About The Force, ANH ("Come with me to Alderaan"), with the shared significance being that Obi-Wan was a Jedi-in-hiding, a carrier of old sacred knowledge. The other decent reference mentioned is the beginning of Stardust being modelled, in instrumentation and tone, on Hologram, ANH, because in both a messenger carries knowledge of the Death Star to the heroes. All in all I'm impressed by Giacchino's use of original trilogy motifs and themes on every scale and with varying prominence, throughout the score. The lack of complexity in some of the writing (particularly action), the lack of ambition in the themes, and, arguably, a certain incoherence to the whole, all seem to be products of the tight schedule. The faith to the Star Wars universe is actually quite incredible, and naysayers need to dig into this score to find that faithfulness and respect. Otherwise, their lack of faith is disturbing. I don't think Desplat would have been able to draw half as well on Williams' canon, or manipulate it with such creativity. I just wish the momentum of AT-ACT Attack's scintillating Rebel fanfare, instead of reverting to chaos, kept firing on all cylinders...

Do they have a different theme?

For my cotton ears, can anyone spell out clearly and specifically the Hoth reference in AT-ACT assault? I don't hear it. When in that track, and from when (and what instrument) in the Hoth track? Also, why AT-ACT and not AT-AT? The vehicles looked the same, just with unfolding cargo doors.

Nice.

I think that would've been a strength if the themes had their own strength. Correct my music-theory newbness, but he's not into long-line melodies, uses lots of short intervals and repeating phrases in his themes - and they seem to get simpler and simpler. I wish he'd had longer to create, because none of these new themes or their presentation really grab me. And they're merely serviceable in-film. That title card cue could've done with a minor key, or more scattered and challenging orchestration, surely? Personally I enjoyed the inclusion of familiar themes in the score alone and within the film - they were more subtle than they could've been. The tremulous ANH theme for Vader's body-horror shot; the Death Star motif in its hammy glory; Vader's theme (right choice considering the plethora of Imperial imagery); 'Alliance Assembly' shuttle run seemed a true fan's callback; Leia's theme, just; the Rebel Fanfare and the many passages that use its interval and key - the drop from hyperspace fanfare is great (what reason can a Star Wars score fan have for not enjoying that statement?). The only exception I would add is the Force theme: hurried or partial renditions don't do credit to the franchise's most profound piece of leitmotif. Trust Goes Both Ways' early bungled statement (missing the meter of the phrasing, I believe) still rings sore but I think it just about suits the editing of the take-off scene it accompanies - I wonder if a more satisfying straight-through rendition would've done the same job though. As for all the huffing and puffing about this score: I can understand us geeks' sensitivity to a supreme and beloved set of scores getting blended, shoehorned or mashed into the simpler style of a less-sophisticated composer. The fact that Williams' legacy, and Desplat's potential, are implicated in this score goes a long way to explaining the harsh opinions aired here. There is also a demographic - say, not-quite film-score lovers, but fans invested in 'geek-media' and franchises - who like Giacchino and appreciate his involvement. Their noise about (as one forumite put it well) the 'Golden Boy' will leave a sour taste in the mouth of those who just don't like his music, especially as it is splashed upon the Star Wars universe. I wish he'd had longer to score Rogue One, as I think much of the music would be improved, but honestly, I don't think the overall score would've been a huge amount better. I'm a big fan of Giacchino but musically-literate people here have helped me see his technical shortcomings. I still enjoy plenty of his music. What I'd like less of here is people bluntly stating their opinions (positive, but more pertinently, negative) and thinking they're contributing to a discussion. What I'd like to read more of is actually discussion about the actual music. Argue it's strengths and shortcomings, in detail, so that I can understand what makes a composer good at what they do. Explain to me how Williams can create magic where Giacchino cannot and I'm going to learn from this board and you people - please critique my musical understanding of the score as I have attempted to analyse it. Verbally shit over what you don't like and you'll be as banal and boring as the Rogue One title card fanfare. Ha.

Those who've listened to the FYC through, have they expunged the rhythmic first-phrase nods or that one sinister rendition (Krennic's Aspirations) of ANH-Imperial theme? I think Giacchino's referencing of the original themes takes too many approaches to be untangled cleanly. Straight up statements of themes; rhythmic allusions to, say, the Imperial March; new themes using keys and intervals that recall old themes; and then the stretching out of familiar chords, keys and motifs (Alliance Assembly being the best example) that are familiar from the old trilogy. I don't have much love for his new themes and music, but his treatment of the old themes is better than I expected (save that one Force theme bungle we all cringe at).

So they've tried to eliminate all Williams references from this presentation of the score, presumably to make it eligible for an Original Score award. But Cargo Shuttle is based entirely around the Alliance Assembly theme from ROTJ! It's my favourite oblique reference to an old theme in the score...so far. Either whoever edited these doesn't know the reference, or does and assumes the judges don't. Teehee.

I hope this gives some hidden delights to my least favourite and least listened-to Giacchino Star Trek score. At the moment the suites are the only appealing part... but Krall's theme isn't very interesting.

Contentious point: Giacchino's game scores are generally musically better than his film and TV scores.

Nice analysis Aviazn. Medal of Honor Allied Assault was my first Giacchino score (I found the mp3s in the game files, what joy!) and it's strange to reflect that his success has come alongside his writing becoming more simple. I agree the Lost was a turning point (aha! injoke!) but it suited the show so well; I can hear the sound infusing much else since however, even when it may not be the best character (this four-chords-for-sentiment people have mentioned). Anyway, I suppose Rogue One may have more of the same - it would've been great for him to have had the time, space and format of his work on Jupiter Ascending! Alas. I could be right in saying that Speed Racer features some of his more complex writing (again, for him). I am happy to be proved wrong though as I learn more musical theory from people here. The complete score to Speed Racer shows it off better, but this edit of Casa Cristo will have to do:

Thanks for the music theory run-down! Battle of Hoth is great on many levels; I was hoping for more specific instances of each of the things you mentioned, but no matter, I think I get it. Another criticism of Giacchino is that his themes almost always take the form of repeating, deviating phrases, rather than long-line melodies. This was pointed out by someone else here a while ago. I still enjoy much of Giacchino's output though - however I think this score may be quite slapdash - and suffer from his major creative shortcomings - for being written so quickly, and right off the back of the unexceptional Doctor Strange. I still think his best score of recent times was Jupiter Ascending.

I'd like to know more about musical theory - I'm a big Giacchino fan and I acknowledge some of his music is simplistic. Could you expand on these or give me other examples in his music - or counter-examples in more complex music to help me understand? Metrically rigid: so it doesn't change time-signatures? Most music doesn't within any given 40 seconds? Or is it the same rhythm without, say, halving time. Harmonic pallet: what's pred. tritones? Rhetoric over syntax: would more syntactical music have figures that presage coming ones, or callbacks...rather than one section after the next. Circumscribed use of orchestra: not enough xylophone? From my limited understanding, I expect Williams avoids all of these pitfalls (all of the time?), and I suspect these features mark the difference between classical composers and (many) film score composers. Is there a piece of music you can recommend that excels on all of these features?

Bodes well. The four Medal of Honor scores are still some of his best output.

Big fan of them both, and I think I agree. Alas, I doubt Powell will see the Star Wars franchise. Boba Fett is an outside possibility. James Newton Howard for McGregor's Kenobi movie (somewhat akin to the meditative Last Days in the Desert) which exists in my head.

It's a great score, but my least favourite of the Harry Potter films, which is a put off. Give me Azkaban or Deathly Hallows Parts 1 or 2 for a synthesis of film and score quality!

Who wants to take bets he'll use the 60s cartoon Spider-Man theme? I think it could work!

There are too many Spider-Man scores about, methinks, none of them spectacular (my favourite has to be Horner's, closely followed by Elfman's first). I think Giacchino could nail this - a film that took what we saw in Civil War and make a cheeky Marvel film out of it would really suit his style. The hero's theme has to be right though, as Zimmer showed us how not to do it.

Michael LittleJacket, by my reckoning. Any Italians here, feel free to correct me.

Isn't it the diminutive of 'giaccha', meaning jacket?

Not many Europeans can read and pronounce a variety of European languages... but watching Ameericahns try is still a hoot. (I learned French in school and travelled in France a little, and have lived in Italy with my grandparents-in-law, so I think I got these two composers spelled out before I was told. I think).

Quintus, that's a bit of a revelation to me. As a self-confessed Giacchino fan, I hadn't really noticed that before but on reflection would have to agree. Most of his themes are very 'phrase-built'. The best exception I can think of is Parting Words (the Raft/Rescue theme) from Lost.

I expect it to speed up. The world-building is meticulous here. So, is Arnold at the centre of the maze? And finally, I'm disappointed with this EP release! Will we get a full release at the end of season? I hope so!

Yes to both of those. Giacchino is known for leitmotif pedantry and interplay, including of existing motifs (see Speed Racer, The Lost World game and Jurassic World) but I wouldn't get any hopes up.