codanai

All right, I think you guys are being kind of hard on Mr. Beethoven. Look, this statement is not to accuse Williams of being a hack or anything. I've been obsessed with his music ever since I was nine or ten. Music is probably my favorite thing in the world, and Williams has influenced me more than any other composer. But, Beethoven's right in that some of you are so extremely partial about his music that you deny instances when he has stolen other composers' music, and you do this because automatically you think of stealing as a bad thing. And I do mean that Williams has STOLEN whether that be a good thing or a bad thing; personally, I think it's perfectly okay because I think he's turned the music he's taken into something his own, even something better. But the point is you cannot deny the facts: The theme from Born on the Fourth of July is a reference to Barber's Violin Concerto, Movement 2. Star Wars Main Title --> King's Row Main Title (Erich Wolfgang Korngold) Duel of the Fates --> Dvorak's New World Symphony, Movement 3 (loosely) Schindler's List --> Mahler's 8th (loosely) These are the most obvious to me, but others can probably think of other instances. I'm not saying this to accuse Williams, I'm saying this just because it's TRUE! And yes, it's very easy for this to happen in film music because the film composer's job is to create for the viewer associations in order to clarify the story, characters, situations, etc, and classical music carries with it a plethora of associations for people. Williams knows when and how to use music, and as I said, I really think he makes it into something his own and into something great. The Star Wars Main Title is one of the most memorable and wonderful film themes ever written, and anybody would rather listen to it than the King's Row theme. Williams himself has humbly stated that he is standing on the shoulders of hundreds of years worth of musical geniuses. It's true that music builds upon itself, and composers HAVE to steal from other composers and then make it into something new and many times better. Williams always does this. If you haven't compared and contrasted the themes I posted above, I challenge you the most biased of Williams fans just to give them all a try. It doesn't mean you'll be forced to think less of the Maestro; it will simply give you more insight into his composing process.

Willow and the Rocketeer are two of my very very favorites of his. And the 4 note danger motif is great, but it's just a Rachmaninov rip-off (from 1st symphony). And, of course, the main theme from Willow is Schumann. Yeah, I'm done, I'm sure this has been mentioned a billion times. But ALSO (lol), if you really like Horner try listening to Prokofiev's 4th symphony. Just start it from the very beginning. I can't say Horner rips off anything from it, but the opening melody sounds sooo Horner-like. (rather, Horner sounds so Prokofiev-like). In case you can't tell, I really enjoy finding connections with film music and concert/classical music.

I can hear it in the end of Aunt Marge's Waltz, starting at 1:56. It's played in major instead of minor though. It's really just outlining a major chord in 2nd inversion, but ya know, it still kinda sounds like it! And in Anderton's Great Escape from Minority Report, starting at about 1:49, I can hear the first phrase of Vader's theme with the rhythm changed a bit. Hmm...that's all I can think of for now.

Isn't it kind of premature to be listing music from The Terminal, Prisoner of Azkaban, ROTS, and other recent scores? I mean, I can listen to some Williams themes and love them for a few years while others (like the Asteroid Field from TESB) have lasted with me for longer than a decade. The music has to pass the test of time...

Am I crazy to be willing to pay thousands of dollars for sheet music from the ORIGINAL STAR WARS, used by Williams and the London Symphony? Pieces of history?? Come on, man!

JW: Definitely The Asteroid Field (probably my favorite Williams melody of all time). NON-JW: The Song About Alexander Nevsky by Prokofiev. Something by Williams that DOES get old for me is Duel of the Fates, I think because it's so repetetive.

I haven't heard it mentioned yet, so I thought I would. Has anyone heard about Hollywood auctioning off original sheet music, handwritten for cello and 2nd violins, from the first Star Wars? I don't think it's handwritten by Williams himself, but he at least penciled in some alterations to the parts. You can buy the two parts for the Main Title theme, Princess Leia’s Theme, Here They Come, The Little People, the Cantina Band, and The Throne Room & End Title. Starting bid is $3000-$5000. If I weren't stinkin' poor then I'd be on this in a second!! For those interested, go to the link to download the pdf file and then go to page 8 (it says Page 58 on the actual page): http://www.profilesinhistory.com/louImages...pages51-100.pdf Props to whoever gets them!

I too think the film would be a bad idea. Of course not because I think Williams wouldn't create a great score if he were asked to do it, but because, for one, it's too soon after 9/11 and the idea is exploitation as others have said... but also, Stone is just setting himself up for an overly sentimental piece of garbage.

Probably Jurassic Park more than anything for me. It's very special because it's the first score that got me into Williams when I was but a lil 8 year old. My friend Ryan likes to quote all of the dialogue and I try to hum the music behind him. *memories*

My number one would have to be the Superman Theme. But, since it hasn't been said yet, I also think Parade of the Ewoks is up there as one of the best. (Everyone go ahead and stone me.)

Yeah, Leaving Home is definitely an incredible theme, one of Williams's best. But, concerning his worst, I can't believe nobody's yet mentioned "Banning Back Home" from "Hook." BLAH!!!

HaHaHaHaHa!!!!

Wow, I actually fell for it. Kinda...freaked me out! - Jacob

Compared to some of Williams' other scores, I give it an 8. But hey, that's still pretty DANG good. I completely love the Far and Away music, particularly Joseph and Shannon's theme. The Irish lilt type stuff is fun too. And just to throw this out there, if you think the score bad because Williams orchestrates and "westernizes" Irish music, then what do you think of something like Aaron Copland's mexican, cuban, and other latin influenced pieces? Are those embarassing?

Oh, and I say RotS will be the best of the prequel trilogy. RotJ has to be my very favorite score of the six.

I'm counting on a great score, for one, because of how intense and dramatic this movie just HAS to be, and also because it sounds like, from the articles I've read, that people involved in the recordings are saying stuff like, "man, John Williams has to get best score for this..." (of course, another question is, do people always say that?) Also, this may seem funny...but really, the biggest hope I have for for the RotS score is the QUANTITY of music. That was one of the big disappointments with AotC. There were great themes in that movie, such as the love theme, the theme for the water planet (played right after the opening fanfare on the CD), and I also thought cues such as when Anakin gets pissed right after his mother dies and when Yoda hops around with a lightsaber were pretty dang good. But there just wasn't enough of it. I mean, even the last battle scene was mainly rehashed music from TPM. So I say that Johnny should just keep up what he's doing, but he should give me MORE of it!

Thank you for the link! - Jacob

I agree about Lord of the Rings. Some of the material in the scores was good, but the score definitely fell short of being as great as the movies. Imagine the LOTR trilogy if Williams would have scored them. Holy cow. Greta, it's funny that you mention Horner plagiarizing from Schostakovich with Troy, because I got into a little argument with someone about that after I saw the movie. He said Schostakovich, I said Rachmaninov. I admit that I've never listened to Schostakovich's 5th, but I think that both of us were probably right. Just listen to the very beginning of Rachmaninov's 1st Symphony, and you'll hear the motif that Horner uses AGAIN and AGAIN in almost every movie he scores (Willow, Troy, The Perfect Storm, maybe Star Trek, and etc.) da-da-da-DA! By the way, I actually really really like the fanfare that's played when it's panning around the city shots of Troy...you know, that triumphant Lydian theme (that goes up and down the lydian scale). Was that plagiarized? If so, from whom? -Jacob

Yeah, that's definitely a listening challenge. I've always adored both of those themes. But I'm definitely gonna have to go with Leia's Theme, for a few reasons: 1. Leia's theme seems to have more depth, because it's more timeless to me. I remember first hearing Ilia's theme and being completely swept away, but the feeling was fleeting. It began to feel like, "yeah, Ilia's theme...sick of it now." But Leia's theme doesn't do that for me. Its effect is more long lasting. 2. Leia's theme is just more interesting. It has so much character, with the instrumentation, repeating melody, and everything. For example, I love how that flute cadenza-like thing (not sure what you'd call it) comes in the middle before the main melody is played again with the violins. The flute really operates as a kind of narrator, or a muse even, that ties everything up from beginning to end. There's just such perfect dialogue between all the instruments that it sounds like the music couldn't be anything else but what it is. Williams' form for movie themes is typically so simple. I mean, you have theme A, and then a usually shorter theme B to complement it, and maybe something like a C or a variation on either A or B. Leia's theme I believe is a brief flute intro, theme A repeated and varied again and again, some interlude material, and the brief violin ending. I mean, it would be so easy to eventually think, "all right, I've heard this theme a thousand times already. end it." But Williams makes each repeat of the theme interesting and, even more, essential to the development of the piece as a whole. With Leia's theme, you just have to keep listening and keep listening, and many times you don't even realize that the theme is being repeated again because it's all changing and building so perfectly. Goldsmith attempts that with Ilia's theme, and pulls it off nicely, but not as masterly as Williams does. 3. now this is entirely subjective, but Leia's theme is just more personal to me. I guess John Williams' style, in general, is just like that. It's always like a comforting friend. I can acknowledge Goldsmith as a great composer, but I can't feel that same closeness as I can with Williams' music. Woops, I've gone and wrote me a book. Yeah, Leia's theme.

I am desperately looking for John Williams scores to analyze... and I don't mean transcriptions or anything like that; I'm looking for exactly what I hear on his CDs--the fully orchestrated scores. It can be film scores or any of his concert works. Can anyone point me in the right direction? Pleeeease let me know! thanks! - Jacob (codanai)