The Sith Legend motif from ROTS

[Pelzter 0]

I think this motif, albeit offly short, is an incredibly fascinating thematic idea, and I is such a pity that is never appears again, or in a larger form. Futhermore, does it not seem quite similar to the Sith choir segment of The Dark Side Beckons (1:10 - 1:50), which is probably the best choir piece Williams has EVER written (IMO ofcourse)?

Thoughts on this?

--Pelzter

[tpigeon 3]

Great observation. I love this cue. Williams could have written brooding underscore for this scene, but his approach works wonders. Interesting possible connection to Dark Side Beckons; I think they are definitely similar. And you're right - it's a shame that this wasn't expanded more within ROTS, like when Anakin discovers that Palpatine is the Sith, a scene that should have more explicitly referenced that Sith legend, since I can assume that Palpatine is the apprentice that killed his master.

Ted

[King Mark 3,631]

Thats' when Palpatine talks about Darth Plagueis at the opera,right?I think it's the best thematic idea in RotS and one of the score's highlights.A grand statement of this should have scored the scene of Anakin marching towards the Jedi Temple.

But Williams also uses the same "idea" for the endings of Palpatine's Seduction(film version) and Be Carefull of Your Friend.

K.M.

[John Crichton 4]

This cue is one of the only major ones we need to show up in a game somewhere, you can't get clean rips of either off of any region DVD. I'm dying to hear Palpatine's Big Pitch in all it's glory, I agree that it is an amazing cue based on what you can hear on the DVD.

[Henry B 50]

Well, "Palpatine's Seduction" (with its own motif, later to be reprised in "It Can't Be") is 98% available through the OST and games, so I assume you are talking about "Palpatine's Big Pitch." Yep, that's a good one.

[Trent B 337]

Actually all of "Palpatine's Seduction" is available from the OST and the game material, not just 98% of it.

As far as "Palpatine's Big Pitch", we only have a minute of that from one of the deleted scenes off Disc 2. However I agree I wish that cue would show up in a game and same for "Death Of Dooku".

Hopefully in the next few Star Wars games that LucasArts produces we get the last 30-35 minutes of unreleased ROTS music that we need. I doubt there will be any new material in Star Wars LEGO II since it's based in the OT times and it will most likely just have reused material from the OST's.

[John Crichton 4]

Okay, okay, so I got the cue titles mixed up! Make a big deal of it, why don't you! Sheesh.

As far as "Palpatine's Big Pitch", we only have a minute of that from one of the deleted scenes off Disc 2. However I agree I wish that cue would show up in a game and same for "Death Of Dooku".

Ah yes, I forgot about the portion on the deleted scenes. Can it be ripped more cleanly than in the film?

Palpy's Big Pitch, The Death of Dooku, and the choral-less Lament rearrangement in Padme's Visit are the only big things we're missing now. And Padme's Visit can be gotten off the DVD almost completely dialogue free, but there's lots of lava SFX.

[batmanand 0]

What about the Palpatine-Windu fight and the "POWER! ABSOLUTE POOOWWWWWEEEEEERRRRR!" bit?

[Datameister 2,056]

I don't think "Palpatine's Big Pitch" overall is too spectacular, but there are those certain moments that make you go whoa...and if you're talking about the part I think you're talking about, I have to agree. That's the foundation for a great theme and it's only really heard the one time.

Batmanand--"I Am the Senate" can be ripped from the DVD pretty cleanly. The sound quality is inevitably mediocre, but there are very few sound effects. Some sections can be ripped from the games, too. Unfortunately, the following music isn't as clean, mostly because of dialogue echoes. At one point, the Force lightning ceases to be a directional sound and it comes out of all the speakers simultaneously--a cool idea (being enveloped in the sound), but it unfortunately means that those few seconds have SFX in them.

P.S. It's unlimited power, not absolute power.

[King Mark 3,631]

Palpy's Big Pitch, The Death of Dooku, and the choral-less Lament rearrangement in Padme's Visit are the only big things we're missing now. And Padme's Visit can be gotten off the DVD almost completely dialogue free, but there's lots of lava SFX.

There's also Be Carefull of Your Friend.That's one of my most wanted cues.The buildup to the massive ending chords are one of the score's highlights.That's the scene when Palpatine asks Anakin to be his representative on the Jedi council.The DVD rip is so-so and a spacecraft engine noises ruin the ending.

K.M.

[GoodMusician 56]

yea... Absolute Power is Elliiots brother mocking him with the Yoda Voice lol :-p

"I have absolute power, yes... hmmm m mm!" lol

Could someone tell me where a good representation of this theme/motif is... I keep listening to these and I can never quite tell where you all mean... possibly because it's never outright used as a "this is the theme" moment...

[Incanus 5,723]

Isn't this Sith motif refered to in many places throughout the score? E.g. 1;29-> in Grievous Speaks to Lord Sidious or Palpatine's Teachings 3;15-3;33. Or am I confusing the motif for another? Even General Grievous tracks on the CD have it but in more rhythmic variations.

BTW Why on earth Williams uses only the first part of Emperor's theme in the film? It feels like the theme just goes around in a loop when the actual and natural ending is not used. And there is not question of timing since in the Palpatine Instructs Anakin cue there would have been room to used the actual ending but Williams chose to repeat the first part and it just sticks out like a sore thump. A bad call IMO.

[King Mark 3,631]

o  Palpatine's Teachings 3;15-3;33  

That's not what were talking about.

It's EXACTLY when Palpatine says "Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerfull and so wise he could use the force to influence the midichlorians to create life"at the opera..Listen to your DVD.

There's something incredibly mysterious about it.

k.M.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

I doubt there will be any new material in Star Wars LEGO II since it's based in the OT times and it will most likely just have reused material from the OST's.

when is LEGO 2 coming out?

[Trent B 337]

Towards the end of this year.

[BurgaFlippinMan 7]

yipee!

Burga - who loved LEGO SW

[Incanus 5,723]

o  Palpatine's Teachings 3;15-3;33  

That's not what were talking about.

It's EXACTLY when Palpatine says "Darth Plagueis was a Dark Lord of the Sith so powerfull and so wise he could use the force to influence the midichlorians to create life"at the opera..Listen to your DVD.

There's something incredibly mysterious about it.

k.M.

Oh I do not have DVD yet. I know the part you are talking about and I listened to the DVD rip of the cue again and I must admit I was talking about the wrong thing. Shame that the motif is not used more in the film. It is as you say a very mysterious motif. Reminded me of the Grail Knight theme from TLC.

[GoodMusician 56]

Well everyone, I've been sitting here for the past hour or so and I think I've figured out the notes and the motifs and such... I've decided to maybe try making my own convert version of it. Good idea, bad ideA?

[Pelzter 0]

The motif also seems very much in tune with the OT. One could easily put it into scenes between The Emperor, Luke and Vader in ROTJ and have it make sense, at least musically if not thematically. This is definitly one of the cues, I need the most now, having just discovered a bunch of nearly or entirely clean ROTS unreleased music, from Battlefront II, the german DVD rip (thank god for the nearly clean funeral/finale!).

On a sidenote, it is also interesting to note that the creepy, high-end string lines with follow the death of Dooku is VERY much inspired by both Horner's Aliens (which in itself is inspired by The Gayane Ballet Suite) and Morricone's EXCELLENT The Thing. I noticed this instantly upon first seeing the movie in the theatres.

[GoodMusician 56]

THe rest of that track was very much War of the Worlds though heh

[Henry B 50]

I'm still unclear on this "Sith motif." There's definitely a theme that appears both in "Palpatine's Big Pitch," when Palpatine is discussing the "differences" between the Jedi and Sith, and in "Palpatine Instructs Anakin," when Anakin pledges himself to Palpatine. However, most of the talk here seems to be concerning a melody which, to my knowledge, is only heard in "Palpatine's Big Pitch," and underscores the story of Darth Plagueis.

[King Mark 3,631]

i think Williams was trying to capture the essence of the "early Sith" in that one phrase.

i'd like to hear your concert version GoodMusician

K.M.

[ashinyobject 0]

i'd like to hear your concert version GoodMusician

me as well

[King Mark 3,631]

There's also somekind of reverance to this melody.I remember reading in a scoring session report that Williams had to mix the Force Theme with the Emperor's Theme,I wonder if this is it.It would refer to the Dark Side of the Force.

K.M.

[John Crichton 4]

I've always thought that the Emperor's Theme doubled as the theme for the Dark Side, the same way that other OT themes have double meaning (Obi-Wan/Force, Vader/Empire).

[Trent B 337]

I've always thought that the Emperor's Theme doubled as the theme for the Dark Side, the same way that other OT themes have double meaning (Obi-Wan/Force, Vader/Empire).

I always thought that myself.

[Datameister 2,056]

This melody isn't melodically or harmonically related to either the Emperor's theme or the Imperial March, KM. The notes are E D# E F# C# C#C C#, with the chords being C#m G# C#m F#m C#m F#m G#7 C#m. I hear no resemblance to either of the famous themes.

It's a great melody, to be sure. The last four chords (Im IVm V7 Im) work so well. The orchestration is spot-on, as usual, although it's hard to make out on the DVD rip. Seems to be low trumpet and/or clarinet on the melody, with clarinets (and perhaps synth choir) playing block chords beneath. The higher trumpet notes that play above the final chord of the melody are a nice touch, too.

Goodmusician, I'd like to hear that concert version. Maybe I'll make my own, too!

[Incanus 5,723]

I've always thought that the Emperor's Theme doubled as the theme for the Dark Side, the same way that other OT themes have double meaning (Obi-Wan/Force, Vader/Empire).

My thoughts exactly. And Williams uses the Emperor's theme that way.

[GoodMusician 56]

Ok... so 2nd time I'm posting this... not cool (damn mouse with the backbutton)

Ok... so... I'd like to compile a list of where all these are heard. So far this is what I'm understanding.

1) Sith Legends- The Story of Darth Plauges

2) A Siths' Power Grows

The first motif is, from what I understand, only heard during the telling of the Plauges story right?

The 2nd motif is heard several times: "Be Careful of Your Friend," "Palpatines big Pitch," "It Can't Be" are the ones I know of... are there others? (It also has a relation to a motif from JurassicPark believe it or not)

As far as a concert version goes... I wonder if I should use both of these in one, or make two. I'mthinking of making two, but there really isn't much material for the "Sith Legends" motif...

Also, I notice that as far as "A Siths' Power Grows" motif goes, a good development of that is really the music between "Anakin's Dark Deeds" through to "It Can't Be." The Choir, timpani, brass... seems very fitting to me. That's where I'd start if I were to do a concert version of that.

The two are somewhat related. If you listen to the end of the story of plagues, right before and during the "Not from a Jedi" part, there is a horn part that is not too dissimilar to the 2nd motif...

Are there any other spots I should know about.. and maybe any suggestions? Should I make two or combine them?

[ashinyobject 0]

i'd combine them as one.

[Datameister 2,056]

That's correct, GoodMusician.

I'm thinking it would be fun to do one or more projects that simply combined all the motifs in ROTS that didn't get nearly as much attention as they deserved. The two melodies you mentioned are two of those. There's also a horn melody that plays while Palpatine talks about killing Plagueis, and a descending motif that is heard most clearly in "It Can't Be" but shows up throughout the last third of the film. A separate concert suite for Grievous's theme would be fun, too. (It's not like "General Grievous" on the OST was a real concert suite...just three cues edited together with a few seconds omitted and a little looping.)

And then there's the really twisted idea I've had for a while now. Wouldn't it be fun to write a General Grievous Waltz? His theme is in 3/4 already. Just make very heavy changes to the instrumentation and there you have it. Quite stately, actually.

Okay, way off topic now...

[GoodMusician 56]

LOL! Could you imagine Grevious waltzing?! lol...

Anyways.. those are all things I'm thinking of using.

Iwant to be a composer for film so Ikeep telling myself I need to write 2 minutes of music a day :-p... like that's happening.

I wrote a minuteyesturday... two very different openings for this ... and I'm not sure which I perfer.

I'm going to beusinga lot of the backgroundmaterial such as the harp part: A# G C#

Not to mention the lone horn part: A# G A, A# G E G

The chord progression I'm using sounds right to me but it's a little ifferent than you spoke of Datam.

We'll see I guess. Mind you, I've never really done something likethis before, so don't kill me if it's not up to JW standard.

[fommes 154]

As far as "Palpatine's Big Pitch", we only have a minute of that from one of the deleted scenes off Disc 2.  

We have? Clean?

[GoodMusician 56]

pretty clean... there's no vocal echo and it's indoors...

As clean as you can get with a dvd rip.

[Datameister 2,056]

What's the chord progression you're using, GoodMusician? I'm pretty positive the one I said is correct, unless we're thinking of different parts of the cue.

It's amazingly difficult just to write two minutes of music every day, isn't it? Makes you wonder how the greats do/did it...

EDIT: It's really a pity that deleted scene didn't include the last half of "Palpatine's Big Pitch" rather than the first. The first half is relatively uninteresting--just slow-moving low strings and a couple of dissonant horn phrases. The second half is melodically more interesting.

[GoodMusician 56]

I know... Ibarely did a minute the other day....

I'm using-- if I remember this correctly--

C# Drone with the chord progression of

C#m (3rd inversion)

A#m

C#m (3rd inversion)

D# diminished (3rd inversion)

C# m (2nd Inversion)

I dunno what to call this...

It's the C# m (2nd Inversion) except instead of E at the bottom, the E moves up to F#,

Then that cord, the C# moves to C

Then to C#m with an octave...

I could write it out in midi and send it to you if you'd like... It's hard for me to explain... I don't know all the terminology that well.

[Datameister 2,056]

You could MIDI it if you feel like it, but I understand what you're saying. These chords are very close, but some of them are off. I double-checked with the DVD rip. That first A#m should definitely be major, not minor. The D# diminished is hard to tell; it may be an F# m6 (which is just D# diminished plus a C#) or F# m, but it's not a D# diminished. The two chords you couldn't name are C#sus and C#sus add7, but I double-checked those and they should be F#m and G#7.

These chords are hard to pick out because there's a lot of background noise and the sound quality isn't great. But I'm pretty much positive that the ones I gave are correct.

Sometimes, I'll be playing a custom arrangement of a cue (on piano) in a way that I thought was correct for months. But then I make a minor mistake and play a chord that I thought was wrong. But I play the mistake again and it turns out my arrangement was wrong; the mistake was right. Frustrating when that happens (because I realize I've been playing it wrong for a while), but also a relief (because I finally understand why it's been sounding just slightly off). Try playing this with the chords I provided, and listen to the DVD rip again, and decide which you like better.

Of course, since we're just arranging for the fun of it, we can do whatever we want. If you like that chord progression better, it doesn't particularly matter if it's "right" or not. You can arrange it however you want.

[GoodMusician 56]

Your right about the A# M, I mistyped lol...

as far as the F# m6... The C# is still sustained so I guess it would be that yes.

Could you maybe make a midi of it so I can compare them... I don't quite follow well enough.

Where should I email my midi to?

[King Mark 3,631]

So when is the Premiere of this concert piece?

i can also tell you what I think of what you've done so far.After all I'm the first who pointed out this motif last year

K.M.

[GoodMusician 56]

Hey all.

Thought I'd give an update:

I thought I'd be cute and name the piece "Tales of a Sith Knight."

I've been listeningto the original trilogy, trying to get that sound into my head,so I decided to listen to the track I'm kinda spoofing and you know what I found?

The flute part is actually only a half step off from the Harp part... and what I'm writing starts out quite similar string wise...

So... I'm sorry it's been taking so long but I've not been in the mood to compose lately and just havn't really had it in me to do it... but Now that I've conferred with others on the chord structure and stuff only to realize "your guess is as good as mine" lol...

Give me a few days, and maybe I'll ahve some news :-p